Gibson's passion film 'too Catholic'

Belfast Telegraph ^ | 19 March 2004 | Alf McCreary

[Cronos]

one could ask or your dead Grandmother to pray for you now.....

I do.

[Cronos]

Thanks Tek. Bib, newadvent.com has quite a lot of detail on your questions. What points you have raised are very valid and what any thinking, religious persons would think and what many have already thought about and debated about. However, the Church as a whole (including the Prelates of Constantinople, Jeruslem, and Rome etc.) debated about these and proved them wrong. They did this all in the first 5 odd centuries.

Then after that, the church got complacent and people forgot about these heresies and the common people forgot about them. Many of Martin Luther's and Calvin's queries HAD been raised a lot earlier. The thing is that after a millenium, memories do fade (I like to compare this to the Star wars saga and I'm sure Lucas took the story line from here -- the Jedi defeated the Sith and then forgot about them for millenia until they returned. Similarly, here, the chuch battled agains the various heresies and then forgot about them. And they rose again and have done so ever since the Reformation. And it's gotten worse in the churches that broke away from the RC church -- they have no roots and so they split up further and got further away from the roots of Christianity and are now completely NOT christian, like the direction the ECUSA is taking and also the Mormons.

[Cronos]

I couldn't have put it better:

Those who do not learn from history repeat it. Those who disdain history fall victim to it.

[Cronos]

Too many Catholics like to forget that Luther was Catholic, and he was a reformer, not an abolisher. Not really, St. Francis was a reformer, he reformed the church in the 12th century, but he did not split it

[Cronos]

Correction to my highspeed typo "She is creation, not creator"

All Christians believe that, that Mary was a creation of God.

[Cronos]

case in point: the ECUSA proclaimed Brittney Spears a saint!)

Really? ;-P

[Fledermaus]

he he he...funny movie, many great lines.

[Cronos]

I am surprised to find that Catholics do not subscribe to the doctrine of the dual-nature of Christ. I thought all faiths that subscribed to the incarnation explained it this way.

Catholics DO believe in the dual nature of Christ but both are considered inseparable. That's what has been described in post #167

[Cronos]

Mary can't get salvation for anyone

No, she can't. She doesn't. All that happens is that we ask her to pray to God for us, to add to our prayers.

Salvation is obtained when men believe and confess Christ.

True and most of us need some help to do that.

She can't do it. She can't hear you to begin with.

Huh?

She's not God

True, and Catholics believe that too, she's a creation not divinity.

[Cronos]

And while we Christians debate and spout propaganda at each other, Isalm comes, takes that propaganda and uses it against both of us

[Cronos]

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee (Luke 1:28 with 'Mary' gradually added by the Church)."

Note: Mary receives grace --- she does not dispense grace! Only God/Jesus can do that!

True, and where does the Hail Mary say that? All it says is Hail to you Mary, you are full of grace. It doesn't say dispense grace to us.

[Cronos]

Thanks Presidio. I don't understand the anti-Catholic bias, it seems like a hang up from the Middle Ages. If Protestants would look closer at what the RC church currently teaches they would realise it's 'catholic'/universal appeal and would also reaslise that most ideas they had about the church are propaganda.

To be fair, I think we also believed wrong things about hte Protestants, but the Church has been actively trying to reach out to our brethren in the other churchs

[Cronos]

the Shroud of Turin.

The Shroud has never been considered as an indesputable holy Relic by the Church. Many people thought that 'oooh, it is one of the tenets of the RCC, once it's gone the entire church of God will crumble.'

Well, it isn't so. The Shroud was considered as holy, but the church has never considered it above dispute -- when it first emerged, many Church leaders disputed its authenticity, but no one had any means of proving it in the middle ages. When Carbon dating came about in the 80s(?) the church willingly offered it for carbon testing to determine once and for all if it was true or not. The carbon dating seemed to admit that it was a medieval item. However, lately those very same carbon findings have been disputed. I'm holding my opinion for now, and that's the church's opinion too.

[Cronos]

Mary holding an infant Jesus--who comes off as the greater in those images

Jesus does.

Or consider the rationale for asking Mary to pray for you, that Jesus will do as His mother asks

That's NOT church teachings. If it was, hurrah, Mary would pray for ALL of humanity to be saved and Jesus, being a dutiful son would do that forthright. But no, Mary's prayers are to the eternal God and her prayers are added to ours

[Cronos]

Jesus is 100% God AND 100% man. Two natures bound in ONE person, one hypostasis

[Cronos]

Rome teaches a different Gospel

No, it doesn't. Read the 'Catholic' Bible and tell me how different each book is from the corresponding book in your Bible.

[Cronos]

You need to study what intercession is.

For Catholics, intercession means asking someone to pray to God for us, along with us. The interpretation you've given may be valid in another context, but not in this.

[Cronos]

Good point. And many Catholic clergy agree that the Reformation did clean up the corruption that was there in the church. Luther would NOT leave the current church. That's why we should welcome lutherans and others back to the fold, it is a 'catholic' / universal church after all.

[Cronos]

You also fail to point out that in those 1500 years, death was most certainly the outcome for anyone who even challenged Papal authority.

Not really, for the first 300 years, everyone was getting persecuted by the Roman authorities. up until the advent of Islam and the Great Schism between East and West, you could be excommunicated by one of the bishops (Rome, Constantinople etc) and go to the other.

Even if you didn't agree with Papal authority, in most nations and at most times you would be excommunicated and exiled, not killed by the Papal authorities. under Alexander VI, the Borgia Pope, things did get to the point you talk about and he was an abomination, but I doubt if most other Popes fall in his category.

[Cronos]

Martin Luther was most assuredly a Catholic who hoped to reform his Church for the abuses and misunderstandings he noted in it.
Maybe, but he DID rend it asunder.

Wonder if you have any indignation towards that Pope of that time who contributed to this schism, the same one who was guilty of selling indulgences which we know now you reject as a Catholic today

Yes I do, along with Pope Alexander VI, the Borgia Pope. But, the current church has reformed itself, so why is the schism, the rift in God's church still rent wide open? It's lead to abominations like the ECUSA and Methodist's current teachings on gayys. I would like to welcome back the Lutherans and the many Christian Episcopalians (still left in that place) to rejoin in communion with the Mother Church.