Posted on 03/15/2004 9:57:21 PM PST by kattracks
There are several observations:
1. During most of the 16th and 17th Centuries, England was predominantly Anglican, with Catholic pockets in the north and west and among the landed gentry and Puritan pockets in East Anglia and among the urban middle classes. Despite some Reformation influences under Archbishop Cranmer, the Church of England remained largely Catholic in worship and theology. Thus, English persecution of witches cannot be attributed to Reformation theology (if we assume this theology to be the same as that of modern fundamentalism).
2. Germany was never wholly Protestant. The Counter-Reformation restored Bavaria, Austria, and other parts of western and southern Germany to the Roman Catholic Church. What is now Germany was divided among several hundred mini-states, some ruled by Lutheran or Reformed believers, others by Catholics. There never was a "Protestant Germany" in the sense that there was a "Protestant Denmark" or a "Catholic Spain," where virtually all Danes were Protestant and virtually all Spaniards were Catholic. At least some of the 100,000 deaths attributed to German witchcraft trials must have occurred in the Catholic parts of Germany.
3. The site where you drew your information is a Catholic site, one that condones or rationalizes the atrocities committed by Catholics while exaggerating those of Protestants. (Ever heard of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, on which 30,000 French Protestants were put to the sword in one day? The Pope had a medal issued commemorating this slaughter!) Indeed, this site calls those who criticize Catholic atrocities in the Reformation era purveyors of the "Black Legend," which is the traditionalist Catholic equivalent of the PC cant of "racist, fascist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic" toward those who criticize liberal policies.
4. This Catholic Web site exhibits the same "flawed logic" of defending his church's atrocities as being less severe than those of his opponents of which you have accused me. Can you justify borrowing the same technique without yourself falling into the use of situation ethics?
God didn't ruin Job's life, God simply removed his protection. Satan did the dirty work. You don't know what else was at stake. Satan made his charge against Job in front of a host of angels. And we know that Satan led a third of the angels to rebel against God. That Job endured this may have saved who knows how many angels. What would have been the ramifications if God didn't allow Satan to test Job? I don't know, you certainly don't either. Plus, Job's experience was recorded and has been an inspiration to countless people. And God rewarded Job well for enduring it. Do you think God owes us His protection?
"I hope you can see the difference between a person who dies of old age in his/her bed compared to an innocent child brutally murdered for no good reason like his king took a census or because he called someone a name. "
There is a difference when the Sovereign Lord who gives life to all of us takes a life and when man murders someone. No man has the right to murder. God on the other hand does have a right by virtue of being the Creator to end life.
So you are saying abortion is good in certain circumstances? Because acording to that logic a non-Christian women who has an abortion is doing the embryo a favor.
When abortion is performed by man it is never good. First, the man who does it has stolen authority over life that he does not rightfully have. He has no right to end the child's life. Secondly, you don't know what God had planned for that life. So you cannot say that child is better off. But when God does it, you can safely assume that the greater good is accomplished, for God can see all of the ramifications of doing a thing and of not doing a thing.
Yes God (if he actually exsisted) would be wrong if takes lives for no good reason, I am sorry but what happened to Job was wrong, And the killing of 70,000 people because David took a census of his army is just plain silly,
God always has a good reason and disobedience to God is always serious, especially so when you are a king. When you are in a position of authority, your decisions ALWAYS affect other people for better or worse.
David had forgotten where his strength came from. David was beginning to think that his strength came from the number of men he had, instead of remembering that in his earlier days, it didn't matter how many men he had, only that God was with him.
God gave David three choices of punishment, David counted on the mercy of God and chose the three days of disease at the hand of the Lord. God even stopped that short, when David prayed "I am the one who sinned and did wrong. I gave the order for the people to be counted. These people only followed me like sheep. They did nothing wrong. Lord my God, please punish me and my family, but stop the terrible disease that is killing your people."
The men who died are God's anyway. God doesn't promise you that you will get to live to old age. And you shouldn't think that He does. You stil see death only from your perspective, not from God's.
I would really like to know what word of God or lesson I am suppose to learn from the Book of Judges 19-21.For the life of me that's one part of the Bible I can not figure out.
Wow there are a lot of lessons there:
God did require human sacrifice as part of his "Booty" in Numbers 31:25 - 35 also in Exodus chapter 13 to commemorate the massacre of the Egyptian children God requires the first born of the Israelis to be sacrificed.
LOL NO. Exodus does not require a human sacrifice. The first born was to be "sanctified" which means set apart for the service of God, not sacrificed like a cow on an alter.
Same thing with Numbers 31. 32 captured persons were given to the priest as a heave offering. It doesn't say that they were sacrificed on an alter, only that they were given to the priest probably for service.
"So much for that free will thingy, Huh?"
It's only a limited free will. You have a free will, but there are consequences if you choose poorly.
(FWIW, Stalin re-opened the churches in the Soviet Union only when confronted with the rapid collapse of Soviet forces before the Nazi invasion in 1941. Many Soviet subjects, especially Balts and Ukranians, welcomed the German invaders who were seen as at least not being Communists. Stalin, his pragmatic side winning over Marxist-Leninist dogma, determined a resuscitation of Russian nationalism was necessary to prevent the collapse of the USSR and the elimination of Communism. History shows his strategy worked, and preserved Communist rule for almost 50 years thereafter.)
There are and have been Communist and socialist atheists, fascist and racist atheists (Revilo Oliver and Ezra Pound), anarchist atheists (Lysander Spooner), paleo-conservative atheists (Sam Francis), libertarian atheists (Robert Heinlein, H. L. Mencken), and (probably) even RINO atheists. The belief that there is no Supreme Being or supernatural plane of existence means that atheists must derive their moral and political beliefs from observations of the natural world and the use of reason. But none of the political systems, from totalitarian to anarchic, is necessarily contradictory to the non-existence of God. (I am using God in the sense defined in Webster II's New Riverside Directory: "A being worshiped by monotheists as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.")
My "loopholes" are reasonable; yours are not.
His own goodness. There is no evil in Him. God is sovereign and he is far wiser than anyone else. Therefore He knows what is best. He does repay unrepentant evil with evil, but if you look at his record, He is often slow to repay and often gives time for repentance. But then you should avoid evil and not count on being given time to repent, because you might not get it.
Yes. I think we should deal with our difficulties ourselves, and we don't need any foreign power meddling in our affairs. God has already declared himself to be an enemy of humanity when he drowned almost all of us. He has pledged to burn many of us some day. Such a being cannot be considered our friend.
That appears to be different from qaml who seems to prefer a Nanny God who strikes all evil doers immediately and no doubt premptively thus prevents man from being able to do evil. For my own sake, I'm glad God is not thus. But he is our creator, therefore He is not a "foreign power". I have no doubt that God's meddling has only been to our benefit.
God has already declared himself to be an enemy of humanity when he drowned almost all of us. He has pledged to burn many of us some day. Such a being cannot be considered our friend.
He drowned us because "the earth was filled with violence". He did not drown the righteous. That there was only one righteous man and his family is our problem not his.
There is actually not going to be very many people on the earth when He burns it. But there is going to be judgement on the non-repentant. God is not at war with the righteous, only with the unrepentant. Choosing to remain at war with God is not wise, both because sin tends to have consequences and God's eventual judgement will be sure.
That God Himself paid the price for our sins (including yours), to redeem us, does make Him our friend. That you choose not to accept His payment on your behalf, doesn't make you any worse than the rest of us (Christians included), just means you willingly forfeit your pardon. It's not wise, but it is your God given right.
He's not going to punish you for what you think. He 's going to punish you for what you have done.
No they both F*@^ed with him
2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
You don't know what else was at stake. Satan made his charge against Job in front of a host of angels. And we know that Satan led a third of the angels to rebel against God. That Job endured this may have saved who knows how many angels.
1) Wouldn't the sons of God at the meeting start to think of God less for falling for Satan's trick and torturing this poor guy. I guess it's better to be feared than loved.
2) Also God would have lost credibility as being all knowing when he had to ask where Satan has been and what he has been up to?
What would have been the ramifications if God didn't allow Satan to test Job? I don't know, you certainly don't either.
Plus, Job's experience was recorded and has been an inspiration to countless people.
To who???
And God rewarded Job well for enduring it.
OK he had more kids, That's nice be he still had his original kids killed by God, If someone kills your kids it's little consolation that you can have more.
Do you think God owes us His protection?
No but if there was an all powerful supposedly moral God, I would expect him not to play with helpless people in such manners.
A side note I just caught,
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
John 4:9
God sent his only begotten Son
hmmmmm. What's wrong with that
There is a difference when the Sovereign Lord who gives life to all of us takes a life and when man murders someone. No man has the right to murder. God on the other hand does have a right by virtue of being the creator to end life.
Might makes right. Ok got it.
Judges 19-21
Wow there are a lot of lessons there:
Don't commit idolatry like the tribe of Benjamin did, it gets you into trouble.
What Idolatry? I don't see any Idolatry in that story by the Benjamites
Don't permit homosexuality. Nobody suddenly wakes up in the morning and says "I think I'll gather a few of my friends and we'll go rape that nice gent staying at Joe's house". When you allow the desires that God gave you (love of a man for a woman) to be perverted, there is no end to the perversions that Satan will try to get you to accept. It spreads and eventually your men will be gathering outside some poor bloke's house demanding he send out his guest so they can "know" him.
OK, Homos can be bad people I got that part. But these rapers are pretty much nameless. We don't know who they are or what they did before to become like this.
God does hold man accountable for society. So don't always expect God to come through and blind and destroy the bad guys like God did at Sodom and Gemorrah. Society is commanded to deal with crimes.
HUH?
That the righteous do look out for the sojourner and proactively looks for opportunity to do good.
OK, I guess it was a nice thing for the innkeeper to take the guy in, But that is such a small insignificant part of the story.
That we should not do wrong even to avoid others from committing a greater wrong (prostituting his daughter and the concubine to avoid having the men rape the male guest) and even if other good men (Lot) before us did the same wrong thing.
I don't see that. The guy who shoves his concubine out the door doesn't seem to suffer any ill effects from her death, And I am not just talking about being punished by God even though that poor woman was raped and tortured all night he still got a good night sleep.
Life is sacred, but there is really nothing sacred about a dead body. Sending out the evidence of how they had beat her and abused her, by sending parts of her body out to the different tribes, however gross, did provide the required evidence and did serve to emphasize the seriousness of the crime and stir the conscience of the rest of Israel.
Again, Huh?
That God does hold man accountable for society. The men of Israel had allowed this idolatry to take place in the tribe of Benjamin and now that it had manifested itself in a horrible crime, the men of Israel would have to dispense justice.
So the Israelis should have killed the Benjamites before any of this started.
Don't go out to battle against an army 15 times bigger than you when you are in the wrong. (Saddam would have done better to note this. Sinners would do better too when choosing to do battle with a God that is infinitely stronger)
Ummm. The Benjamites won the first two battles killing a total of 42,000 Israelis and in the end they got brand new virgin wives out of the deal.
Even if you're cause is just and you are 15 times stronger than your enemy, don't take God's presence for granted. Seek God's presence and blessing and forgiveness of your own sin before going to battle.
What??? They did seek God's blessing three times, God even gave them battle instructions and urged them on!!!!
Don't in your zeal to do justice go too far and commit atrocities yourself.
OK, That's what happened but the Israelis never got any negative effects from those atrocities, The people of two other tribes who had nothing to do with any of this sure did however.
When your brother repents forgive him and restore him.
HUH? By killing everybody in whole other tribe and then going to another tribe and kidnapping virgin women?
I'm sure there are other lessons.
I have 2
1) I guess you can make a case against racism, Because if the guy didn't fear and hate foreigners so much he would have stayed the night in their lands instead of pushing onward to Benjamin and none of this would have happened.
2) Bible believers will go to great lengths to see any story and actions in the Bible as good no matter how awful they really are.
Thank you for trying to answer it, But I don't see any of what you listed.
Here is the best take on it I have seen
LOL NO. Exodus does not require a human sacrifice. The first born was to be "sanctified" which means set apart for the service of God, not sacrificed like a cow on an alter.
Granted the euphemisms "Sanctify" and "Redeem" are used early in the chapter but 13:15 is quite clear
Exodus
13:15
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.
Same thing with Numbers 31. 32 captured persons were given to the priest as a heave offering. It doesn't say that they were sacrificed on an alter,
Well what do you think a heave offering is? You burn something then you heave it back and forth (As opposed to up and down during a wave offering) letting it's blood or guts spill out on an alter.You couldn't do it with a living thing. See Leviticus Chapter 7 for details about heave (and wave) offerings.
only that they were given to the priest probably for service.
Well what do you know I guess God and the Bible do condone slavery!!!!!
* Three neo-pagan men/groups (Goering, Hess, Aryan Nations)
* One organization consisting of different types of Protestants, but motivated by un-Christian doctrine deriving from a corruption of evolutionary theory (Ku Klux Klan)
* Four Anglican monarchs or groups, with theologies closer to Rome than to Geneva or Wittenberg (British who infected Indian blankets, English witchcraft prosecutors, Kings James I and Henry VIII)
* One American president whose theology may be described as liberal Protestant (Bill Clinton)
* Four Reformation era theologians (Knox, Melanchthon, Zwingli, Calvin) who were not primarily political leaders.
* One group mixed among Catholics, Lutherans, and Reformed (German witchcraft prosecutors)
* One dictator and one group that were Calvinist (Cromwell and the Salem witch hunters) The last group, though unjustly killing a few dozen under color of law, hardly qualifies as a mass killer.
Out of the 15 "Protestant fundamentalist mass murderers" you cite, only one (Cromwell) and one half (German Lutheran or Reformed witchcraft prosecutors) could justly be counted as possibly qualifying as a "Protestant fundamentalist mass murderer." You are 10% correct (if you choose to be an optimist)!
OK, so maybe history is not your strong suit. Unfortunately, neither is your ability to infer what my position is. Cromwell and the Salem witch hunters were wrong, acted immorally and did no justice to the name of Christian, which they claimed as their own. Neither did Anglican, Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox political leaders who committed atrocities in the name of Christ. Two wrongs don't make a right, as I stated in my earlier post. Additionally, it is wrong to support authoritarian government as an antidote to a totalitarian one. Tsarist Russia or Fascist Spain were perhaps not as brutal as the Communist bloc, but they were still unjust political systems. Christians have abused power. So have Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Shintoists, atheists, and pagans.
No, it sounds a lot like a court of law. In case you haven't noticed, God isn't making the world good and pure. Man will continue to fill the world with evil until God destoys it.
many have told me that people will be punished if they do not believe jesus is the son of god and ask for forgiveness in their heart for their sins. The failure to do those things are thought crimes in my book.
Technically they are wrong. It's the things that have done that will condemn you. God has already judged the world throughout time and announced the verdict, "There are none righteous."
What believing in Jesus and asking for forgiveness does is provide a pardon. Refusing to believe in Jesus is the equivalent of a death row prisoner telling the Governor to "shove it" when he calls to discuss a pardon. They won't execute you just because you told the governor to "shove it", you get executed for the crimes you committed.
Only God knows the ramifications of what if God had not allowed Satan's challenge to proceed. I wouldn't presume that God was "tricked". God has a way of turning Satan's evil designs around and blessing people through them.
2) Also God would have lost credibility as being all knowing when he had to ask where Satan has been and what he has been up to?
God often asks questions that He already knows the answer to. Note God asking Adam why they are naked? Asking Cain where is his brother? Jesus upon being resurrected asking what events all Jerusalem is talking about, when He knows full well that they are talking about His own crucifixion that had just happened. If God only asked questions He never knew the answer to, He'd never ask us anything at all.
To who (was Job an inspiration to)?
Me and countless other Christians and Jews. Not only did Job show us how to act when bad things happen, his friends taught us not to be too judgemental when we don't know whether bad things are happening as the result of sin or not.
OK he had more kids, That's nice be he still had his original kids killed by God, If someone kills your kids it's little consolation that you can have more.
Again your perspective is wrong. Job only misses his kids in this life, Job will have all of his kids for eternity. This life is very temporary. When David loses the first child that he has with Bathsheba, David looks forward to being reconciled with his child after his own death.
God sent his only begotten Son vs son's of God
the difference is that "son's of God" can refer to either angels or believers. Both Israel and Christians are called the Children of God. I'm a son of God by adoption not by birth. Jesus is the only "begotten" Son of God. Jesus was God incarnate.
"Might makes right. Ok got it."
It's not just that He is more powerful, He is the Creator, we owe our very existence to Him. But He does tend answer such questions with responses like, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". "Does the pot say to the potter why have you made me thus?" "What is it to you if I have made one vessel for my wrath and one for my mercy". The bottomline is that God demands that "you love your neighbor and walk humbly before Him." That is His law, and if you fail to do that you will suffer death. You can question His goodness all day long, but the end result is that you will be tried for the things that you have done. And He will be right.
What Idolatry? I don't see any Idolatry in that story by the Benjamites
My mistake, idolatry was in Judges 18, but that was the tribe of Dan, not Benjamin. The Benjamites were just immoral not idolatrous. "sons of Belial" apparently means "ungovernable men". So they were certainly rebellious at the least. Exalting yourself above God and not recognizing His authority is in a sense, idolatry.
HUH? (God holds man accountable for society...Society is commanded to deal with crimes.
Well the commandments on how to deal with certain crimes (Death penalties, etc) are well known, so I'm going to assume your problem is with my statement that "God holds man accountable for society.". As part of society, you have a responsibility to society. That's why the towns that didn't help were punished.
See, God didn't just command that you not kill or steal from your neighbor or sleep with his wife and covet his cow. God commanded that you LOVE your neighbor. (Are you starting to see why God declared none are righteous?) The image of the righteous man is the old man who comes in from the field and insists the traveler not stay on the street. God doesn't expect you to just mind your own business. He holds you to a much higher standard. He expects you to LOVE. Look at Job's defense of himself to God in Job 29:12 and the following verses. Compared to that standard, God is right. I've not met a righteous man yet, and certainly not myself. I need a pardon!!! And I'm guessing you do too.
The guy who shoves his concubine out the door doesn't seem to suffer any ill effects from her death
He loses his wife. She is refered to as both concubine and wife (ref father-in-law 19:4). She is probably called a concubine because she had no endowment. It's just conjecture that the old man offered them because he was familiar with the story of Lot who did the same. But in Lot's case the angels interviened.
So the Israelis should have killed the Benjamites before any of this started.
They should have addressed it and perhaps nobody would have been killed. That the tribe of Benjamin let things get so out of hand, and was then willing to defend the evil doers, almost resulted in the entire tribe being eliminated. Deuteronomy tells you to "rebuke your neighbor frankly so you don't share in his sin." Not exactly the mind your own business message we are so fond of today, is it?
Again Huh (dead bodies aren't sacred...)
What didn't you understand? He cut the bruised and battered body, because it would take too long to send the whole body around to all 12 tribes for them to see what the Benjamites had done to her. It was gross but seeing the body parts did make the Israelites realize the heinousness of the crime.
Exodus 13:15
This is a reference to the tenth plague on Egypt, not human sacrifice. The 10th plague was that all of the firstborn of Egypt would die. See Exodus 11:1-5. I've read that each of the 10 plagues corresponded to a false god that the Egyptians worshiped. Thus even in the process of freeing Israel, God was demonstrating that He alone is God.
What??? They did seek God's blessing three times, God even gave them battle instructions and urged them on!!!!
They didn't ask for forgiveness for their own sins until right before going to battle for the third time. They should have known to do this from God's instructions for previous battles. If you don't know the word of the Lord, you do stupid things.
OK, That's what happened but the Israelis never got any negative effects from those atrocities, The people of two other tribes who had nothing to do with any of this sure did however.
The towns that had refused to help bring justice was punished because they had a duty that they had failed to do. They had no indignation at the crime committed and no concern for securing the nation from God's judgements by the administration of justice.
You burn something then you heave it back and forth (As opposed to up and down during a wave offering)
LOL, no. It's a "tribute", vs 41 says the 32 persons were given to the priest, not offered on the alter as a sacrifice.
Well what do you know I guess God and the Bible do condone slavery!!!!!
Only in rare cases as a punishment. God did use slavery to punish Israel several times. And in this case God uses slavery to punish Midian. Stealing a man and making merchandise of him was specifically forbidden. So this is an exceptional case.
The failure to love others is what condemns you.
The failure to recognize your sin, that there is no good you can do to make up for it that you shouldn't have done anyway, and your resulting need for forgiveness is what causes you to forfeit your pardon.
You can think of that like a thought crime if you want too. But don't think that's the only reason you were condemned. You have much greater crimes than that.
In our justice system, rehabilitation doesn't work so well. We don't know who will behave when released and who won't.
God on the otherhand, knows your heart. He knows that if you are willing to agree with Him about sin and submit your life to Him, then He can make you into something wonderful and there is no need for you to perish.
Call that a thought crime if you will, but to me it just sounds like an excuse.
I will admit that C.S. Lewis' The Screwtape Letters came closer to driving me to God that anything else ever has, because it's an excellent and pointed satire of this very ignorance.
However, Lewis did not answer this fundamental question: why should we lend any weight to what is written in the Bible? Why should the words in that book be more important than any other book? (please keep in mind that arguments involving the infallibility of God and the divinity of Jesus are insufficient, as they require an assumption of the point in question).
I have many more non-faith related reasons, but I must prepare for work. In hindsight, Christians all testify to the realization that the Holy Spirit is the one who reveals the true nature of what Jesus Christ did for us on and after the cross. However, the Bible teaches us to reason with others regarding Scripture, because we serve a reasonable God who did not remain nebulous off in space, but became a human like us so that we could completely relate to Him. I pray your intrest is evidence of the Holy Spirit drawing you to Jesus Christ.
God wants a relationship with us, and He reestablished fellowship with us through the Cross for those that believe. Fellowship with God is our purpose in life! There is nothing better.
May God Bless your pursuit.
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