Posted on 03/12/2004 5:29:50 AM PST by veronica
When Talk Turned To Assassination He Exited, Vet Says
The anti-war group that John Kerry was the principal spokesman for debated and voted on a plot to assassinate politicians who supported the Vietnam War.
Mr. Kerry denies being present at the November 12-15, 1971, meeting in Kansas City of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and says he quit the group before the meeting. But according to the current head of Missouri Veterans for Kerry, Randy Barnes, Mr. Kerry,who was then 27,was at the meeting, voted against the plot, and then orally resigned from the organization.
Mr. Barnes was present as part of the Kansas City host chapter for the 1971 meeting and recounted the incident in a phone interview with The New York Sun this week.
In addition to Mr. Barness recollection placing Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, another Vietnam veteran who attended the meeting, Terry Du-Bose, said that Mr. Kerry was there.
There are at least two other independent corroborations that the antiwar group Vietnam Veterans Against the War, of which Mr. Kerry was the most prominent national spokesman, considered assassinating American political leaders who favored the war.
Gerald Nicosias 2001 book Home To War reports that one of the key leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Scott Camil,proposed the assassination of the most hard-core conservative members of Congress,as well as any other powerful, intractable opponents of the antiwar movement.The book reports on the Kansas City meeting at which Mr.Camils plan was debated and then voted down.
Mr. Nicosias book was widely praised by reviewers as varied as General Harold Moore, author of We Were Soldiers; Gloria Emerson, who had been a New YorkTimes reporter during the Vietnam War, and leftist Howard Zinn. Mr. Kerry himself stated in a blurb on the cover that the book ties together the many threads of a difficult period. Mr. Kerry hosted a party for the book in the Hart Senate Office Building that was televised on C-SPAN.
Another source is an October 20,1992, oral history interview of Scott Camil on file at the University of Florida Oral History Archive.In it,Mr.Camil speaks of his plan for an alternative to Mr. Kerrys idea of symbolically throwing veterans medals over the fence onto the steps of the Capitol during the Dewey Canyon III demonstration in Washington in April of 1971.
My plan was that, on the last day we would go into the [congressional] offices we would schedule the most hardcore hawks for last and we would shoot them all, Mr. Camil told the Oral History interviewer. I was serious.
In a phone interview with the Sun this week, Mr. Camil did not dispute either the account in the Nicosia book or in the oral history. He said he plans to accept an offer by the Florida Kerry organization to become active in Mr. Kerrys presidential campaign. Campaign aides to Mr. Kerry invited Mr.Camil to a meeting for the senator in Orlando last week, but they did not meet directly.
Mr. Camil was known to colleagues in the anti-war movement as Scott the Assassin. Mr. Camil told The New York Sun he got the name in Vietnam for sneaking down to the Vietnamese villages at night and killing people.
According to the Nicosia book and interviews with VVAW members who were involved, at theVietnamVeterans Against the War Kansas City leadership conference, Mr. Camil tried to put his plan into effect. He called together eight to 10 Marines to organize something he called The Phoenix Project. The original Phoenix Project during the Vietnam War was an attempt to destroy the Viet Cong leadership by assassination. Mr. Camils Phoenix Project planned to execute the Southern senatorial leadership that was financing the Vietnam War. Senators like John Stennis, Strom Thurmond, and John Tower were his targets, according to Mr. Camil. They were to be killed during the Senate Christmas recess the following month.
After an attempt to parcel out the hit jobs required to kill the senators, Mr. Camils plan was presented to all the chapter coordinators present and the VVAW leadership. Mr. Nicosias book recounts, What Camil sketched was so explosive that the coordinators feared lest government agents even hear of it. So they decamped to a church on the outskirts of town with the intention of debating the plan in complete privacy.When they got to the church, however, they found that the government was already on to them; their debugging expert uncovered microphones hidden all over the place. An instantaneous decision was made to move again to Common Ground, a Mennonite hall used by homeless vets as a crash pad.
Camil was deadly serious, brilliant, and highly logical, Mr. Nicosia told the Sun.
The plan was voted down. Theres a difference of opinion as to how narrow the margin was.
The claims of Mr. Kerrys involvement in the assassination discussions in Kansas City have apparently not been previously reported.
The most recent book that focuses on Mr. Kerrys relations with his fellow Vietnam veterans, Douglas Brinkleys Tour of Duty, reports the events as follows: In a November 10 letter housed at the VVAW papers in Madison,Wisconsin, Kerry quit, politely noting he had been proud to serve in the national organization. His reason was straightforward: personality conflicts and differences in political philosophy. In two days,VVAW was meeting in Kansas City and he would be a noshow.
But in a footnote, Mr. Brinkley acknowledges,I could not locate Kerrys November 10 VVAW resignation letter supposedly housed at the Wisconsin archives. The quote I used comes directly from Andrew E. Hunts essential The Turning: A History of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (1999).
When asked by the Sun who told him Mr. Kerry was no-show at Kansas City, Mr. Brinkley replied, Senator Kerry. Mr. Brinkley also stated that Mr. Kerry did not have a personal copy of the resignation letter either.
But in an interview with the Sun, the essential historian Mr. Brinkley relied on as his source, Andrew E. Hunt, said I never stated that there was a letter of resignation, or even implied in my book that I saw one. I never could find one in the archives in Wisconsin. I dont know how Brinkley got the idea that I had. I never could figure out when Kerry resigned. When asked about Mr. Brinkleys statement that Mr. Kerry didnt have a copy of the resignation letter either, Mr. Hunt said, I dont know about that. I never could get an interview with Senator Kerry. But I never saw anyone who saves things the way Kerry does.
Whether or not there was a letter of resignation dated November 10 is obviously important, since it predates the Kansas City assassination discussions by two days.
Mr. Camil said he did not recall whether Mr. Kerry was at the Kansas City meeting nor did he recall whether he had discussed his assassination plan with Mr. Kerry.
But Mr. Barnes, the head of the Missouri Veterans for Kerry, said, I dont think there was a letter of resignation. He just said he was resigning after the vote.
Clearly there is considerable confusion about the time of Mr. Kerrys resignation.According to Mr. Nicosia,He resigned from the executive committee after a spectacular argument with VVAW leader Al Hubbard at the July national leadership meeting in St Louis.
But on behalf of the John Kerry campaign, spokesman David Wade told the Sun yesterday that Mr. Kerry resigned from Vietnam Veterans Against the War sometime in the summer of 1971 after the August meeting in St. Louis, which Kerry did not attend.
Mr.Wade also said,Kerry was not at the Kansas City meeting.
Two-thirds of the American troops in Vietnam at the height of American commitment in 1969 had already been withdrawn in the Vietnamization policy in effect at the time of the VVAW Kansas City conference in November 1971. When asked recently by the Sun why the assassinations still seemed necessary, Mr. Camil replied: The war was still going on. We had to stop it.
1. Kerry didn't want to rat out any of his latest "band of brothers," which would parallel the "brothers" he claims to have witnessed committing atrocities in Vietnam, but didn't report.
2. Kerry couldn't report the conspiracy because his VVAW "brothers" had info on him, or because he was concerned that ancillary info on him would come out in an investigation of the conspiracy.
3. Kerry was threatened.
It would think a combination of all three. And #3 would not even need to be insinuated; just the thought of killing leadership they disagreed with, should have made Kerry think it would not be a great leap to include a traitor to their group.
He's both
We can't even conclude that is why he voted that way. It may be because he merely sided with the majority...Checking the way the wind was blowing and going with the "winning" side.
Vietnam Veteran Larry J. O'Daniel has today challenged former fellow officer and veteran, John Forbes Kerry to come clean with charges Kerry has made in the past. O'Daniel, a decorated combat veteran from Vietnam and Phoenix says that the issue is one that the Senator himself has brought on.
Thirty two years ago, Kerry charged decorated war veterans with unspeakable crimes. Those charges were never proven accurate.
Before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971, Kerry asserted he represented veterans, honorably discharged and very highly decorated, who participated in war crimes. These crimes were not isolated incidents, he charged, but crimes committed on a day - to - day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. Crimes that this country made them do.
A problem arises. Kerry's testimony was largely untrue. These charges were investigated then and since. My challenge as we honor veterans of that war and others - Prove them or apologize.
Kerry's widely covered charges largely paralleled that of another highly decorated veteran, LTC Anthony Herbert. Some of the unsubstantiated and uncorroborated accusations of Kerry were almost identical to specific charges leveled by Herbert. Both charged war crimes were ignored, uninvestigated, part of the routine.
Kerry relied upon phonies and wannabes for support. His prominence has allowed current phonies and wannabes to continue the unsubstantiated allegations made all those years ago and which Kerry appears to condone even today. For example:
Elton Manzione, claiming Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) credentials, Kerry's original organization, along with his friends, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz, and Kenneth Van Lesser. They claimed to kill children and remove body parts as part of the notorious Phoenix program. They were neither in Phoenix nor in Vietnam.
Kerry's VVAW leader friend from 1971, Al Hubbard, lied about being an officer, Vietnam Veteran, and sustaining war injuries. Michael Harbert, another VVAW crony of Kerry, lied about his Vietnam service.
Frank Dux: He charged many recognizable Vietnam vets with using techniques bordering on war crimes. Dux was a fraud and non Vietnam Veteran.
Yoshia K. Chee claimed we in Vietnam routinely resorted to the most hideous forms of torture, threw people out of helicopters, and decapitated prisoners. He was a phony.
Mike Beamon, an alleged SEAL and Phoenix assassin, was never in the military.
The Senator's own VVAW and similar groups relied upon people like: K. Barton Osborn, a Vietnam veteran and testifier of atrocities to Congress. He told of prisoners being thrown out of helicopters, a woman starved to death, a prisoner being killed by a six inch dowel pushed through his ear. Osborn was not in Phoenix, refused to name names, and provided no documentation.
Lieutenants Francis Reitemeyer and Michael J. Cohn. Both sought conscientious objector status because of Phoenix. Reitemeyer testified to being assigned to Phoenix as an adviser and maintained a kill quota of fifty bodies a month. They became famous as My Lai hit the news. Neither served in Vietnam, in Phoenix, or had any first hand information. Reitemeyer later denied receiving any assassination training. Both were at Ft. Holabird when I underwent my intelligence training there.
Dux, like others relied, upon the specific charges of Herbert, which were publicly aired in this same time frame as that of Senator Kerry, in order to prove his charges. Herbert was highly decorated, apparently corroborating the Senator¹s charges. Despite highly specific unit naming charges of some 21 war crimes, the facts of a subsequent investigation contradict both Herbert and Kerry. Overall, this contemporaneous investigation lasted seven months. Investigators located and interviewed 333 personnel located in 31 different states, and six different foreign countries, including Vietnam. Out of the 21 incidents involved in the initial charges by Herbert, only seven charges had sufficient substance to merit action or further investigation. Two of the seven had already been acted upon with justice administered. One ended with an article 15 punishment and one with a general court martial.
Two more of the seven involved Vietnamese versus Vietnamese offenses, outside the scope of American jurisprudence and not necessarily proven. The remaining three, at the time of the DA writing, November 5, 1971, were then pending further action by officers exercising general court martial jurisdiction. In other words, it was being further investigated to see if it warranted charges being filed. This shows atrocities and allegations of atrocities were neither condoned nor swept under the rug.
My challenge is clear. Make the specific charges, times, dates, persons, programs, units involved, of war crimes as outlined in your 1971 testimony. Be specific on your own knowledge of these war crimes. Clear the air about Phoenix, your participation, knowledge, even suspicions. Support the investigation of the war crime allegations of your former colleague [Bob Kerrey]. Do not allow his status of being a fellow privileged fraternity member from doing your sworn duty, either now as a Senator, or from that era, where as an officer and gentleman, you claimed personal knowledge of atrocities.
Either itemize those incidents or apologize to the veterans of Vietnam whose reputations, valor, and integrity you sullied then and now and renounce those charges you then and now refuse to itemize. I make this challenge as a veteran of Vietnam, Phoenix, and as a former fellow officer and colleague. Duty - Honor - Country - These are our obligations. You are at a fork in a path. Integrity or disgrace. Your choice.
You can't see her on the MSNBC video .. but I did she her on the video that FNC had .. she was on the same side that Barbie Boxer was standing on .. but way in the back
Yep, I heard the question .. and I found it to be a bit odd .. I've never heard Kerry asked a question like that before
Another source is an October 20,1992, oral history interview of Scott Camil on file at the University of Florida Oral History Archive.In it,Mr.Camil speaks of his plan for an alternative to Mr. Kerrys idea of symbolically throwing veterans medals over the fence onto the steps of the Capitol during the Dewey Canyon III demonstration in Washington in April of 1971.
My plan was that, on the last day we would go into the [congressional] offices we would schedule the most hardcore hawks for last and we would shoot them all, Mr. Camil told the Oral History interviewer. I was serious.
In a phone interview with the Sun this week, Mr. Camil did not dispute either the account in the Nicosia book or in the oral history. He said he plans to accept an offer by the Florida Kerry organization to become active in Mr. Kerrys presidential campaign. Campaign aides to Mr. Kerry invited Mr.Camil to a meeting for the senator in Orlando last week, but they did not meet directly.
Sounds like it to me. He wants to make it clear that when talk turned to assassination, he left slinking out the back door.
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