Division's aim is more humvee firepower

Marine Corps News ^ | March 4, 2004 | Lance Cpl. Samuel Palmer

[Cannoneer No. 4]

MARINE CORPS BASE CAMP PENDLETON, Calif.(March 4, 2004) --

Heavily armed humvees are in the Marine Corps' future — but will they come soon enough to help Marines in Operation Iraqi Freedom?

If Maj. Gregory G. Frich has his way, they will.

"Our intent is to make this mount available for OIF II as soon as possible," Frich, 1st Marine Division's ordnance officer, said about a prototype mount that allows attachment of several crew-served machine guns on vehicle doors.

The idea for the mount was spawned during Operation Iraqi Freedom, when Marines riding through Iraqi towns in humvees at times ran gauntlets of rifle, machine-gun and rocket-propelled-grenade fire. Sometimes the enemy fire came against softback humvees with no mounted weapons.

"This has the potential to change the way (Marines) conduct themselves while under enemy fire in a convoy," said Cpl. David R. Conwan, a machine-gun instructor for 1st Marine Division Schools. "It allows Marines to maneuver during any hasty situations that they might find themselves in a humvee."

"It has potential not only to return rounds but also to deter enemy fire to convoys," added Sgt. Joel D. Ramsey, another machine-gun instructor.

The division has been testing the mount for the past month. Testing didn't go smoothly at first; machine-gun instructors rejected the first two prototypes before the third passed a series of field tests.

"The first model that we tested was awkward to shoot with, so we made suggestions to make it easier for use, and within a week, we had a new one to test," Ramsey said.

The mount includes two components that can be installed and removed within a matter of seconds, Ramsey said. The main element has two 1-foot-long metal arms with a cradle that holds the machine guns and ammunition.

There's a bar so the mount can slide along the vehicle. The third component, the door adapter, is attached to the humvee but unnoticeable.

"The machinist has been cooperative with our suggestions. He takes what we have to say, then he brings it back to us improved and in a timely fashion," Conwan said.

Mass production can begin as soon as the mounts are approved, Frich said. The approval process for new items is complex and could delay installation of the mounts on vehicles in Iraq, Frich said.

Approval could take anywhere from three weeks to three years, he said.

"It's difficult to determine how long it can take," he said. "There are so many considerations for final acquisitions approval."

[Spruce]

I imagine anything larger than a SAW would be too heavy.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

The Stryker is Army only?

So far. The Marine's LAV's are getting old and rusty, though.

How much more weight in armor and Gun mounts can a Humvee handle ?

Depends on how much performance, mobility, and reliability you are willing to sacrifice. Ever loaded cinder blocks onto a pick up? The truck will let you know when you have to take some off.

Where are all the armored personnel carriers?

A lot of them are down in Kuwait getting ready to go home. Others are parked in the motor pools at the base camps. Some are still in daily use. There is a world-wide shortage of Bradley track.

[MarkL]

I dunno, a M240 is still only a 5.56mm. I think this is a pretty weak round to have mounted on a vehicle. I think I'd rather have the reach and clout provided by a MA-DEUCE cal .50 or even a MK19 40mm! That might be the tanker in me a talkin' but I was an Infantry Officer before I was a tanker and we put the MK19 on our FAV's and it worked great.

Actually, before last Christmas, when a local radio station did a "Toys for Tots" promotion, the Marines were there in force... It was pretty darned cold, and a bunch of these fine men were wearing nothing more than their dress blues. Anyway, they had a few trucks there, as well as 2 humvees... one with a M-2 mounted on the top, and the other with the auto grenade launcher... I mentioned that I could use one of those for my commute every morning...

Mark

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Your coax was an M240, 7.62mm

The M249 SAW is 5.56mm.

Whatchu tink, archy?

[Cannoneer No. 4]

While we're at it, why not mount a CROWS sideways where the passenger door used to be?

Simple and cheap can be good, too.

[SoCal Pubbie]

I DO not a bit about plastic! Lexan, which is actually a brand name for polycarbonate, is the stuff bullet proof glass is made of. It is practically indestructible. It is however, soft, so it deforms but does not break, unlike acrylic, but its softness allows it to scratch easily. In short order it might be tough to see through the thing in the field, particularly in a sandy environment. There are very fine sanding/polishing kits for plastic that I have heard are used for aircraft canopies, though I don't know if that is just for the factory or also used in the field.

I think you are right. The idea is to move fast and fire, not get buttoned up like a tank. I still wonder is some sort of shield might still be useful though.

[MPJackal]

"Perhaps I'm over engineering, but . . .
With this mount taking the load, why not put optics on the gun and the camera/trigger on the dash of the cab?"

The Army is testing it now in Iraq. "CROWS". You can top mount a MK-19, M240, 50 cal, M249. Gunner sits inside with IR, Night vision, zoom, and on the move balistics computer. Hope it turns out to be all it is hyped up to be.

[MPJackal]

"While we're at it, why not mount a CROWS sideways where the passenger door used to be?"

Too Heavy. And why mount on the side and limit your field of fire when a top mount has 360?

[Alamo-Girl]

Bump!

[MindBender26]

Vietnam Lessons Learned, (then promptly forgotten) #47:

Never travel in lead position of convoy with vehicle windshield up. Bay Guys hop out in front of vehicle and shoot you, but you can't shoot through windshield because guy in front can't get weapon to bear and guy in back is looking out side.

Why won't windshield fold down on Humvee???????

#48: Take off all canvas. With canvas on, they can shoot at you, but you can't shoot at them 'cause you can't bear on them or even see them. Also when sierra hits the fan, you want multiple ways for 10 people to get in and out of vehicle, in 10 different directions, at same time.

#49: Take off all doors. See last half of #48 for reason.

#50: EVERY jeep (Humvee) is a gun jeep (Humvee). Take off that stupid door mount. Mount pintle for 360 degree swivel MG between seat backs of front seat. Driver drives, co-driver, (senior man in front passenger seat) covers forward. #3 man stands on the 360 degree MG. #4 and #5. sit facing outward, back to back in back seat area.

Floorboards and under seats covered with sandbags.

Everybody practices running pickup, to if vehicle is hit, crew unassed vehicle, goes to ground/ditch just long enough for next vehicle to get into range. Next vehicle ACCELERATES into killing zone, slows down a little, everyone jumps on board hood, back, spare tire, etc. Everyone, is shooting whether they see target or not. #2 vehicle never stops. Everyone unasses the killing zone, loops around behind ambushers and vigorously attacks their flank and flanking rear. Vehicles further in line assume new relative positions (lead, slack, etc) and move through killing zone ASAP

Bodies of bad guy KIAs are put on crown of road next to dead jeep and jeep is burned on spot, or towed away if can be towed quickly.

From first shots of ambush until area cleared, less than 4 min max.

[ExSoldier]

"I imagine anything larger than a SAW would be too heavy."

Our FAV's (Fast Attack Vehicles---DUNE BUGGIES) had .50's and MK 19's and even TOW launchers. Things got outta hand when they tried to mount a 30mm CHAIN GUN on one! It fit but was so heavy the tires flattened.

[ExSoldier]

It's been eleven years since last I had the mind blowing pleasure of commanding an M1 Abrams tank and you know, you might be right on the coax, but I seem to remember a VERY high rate of fire! Not the hammer (thudda thudda) of a 7.62mm. The commander's station had a SAW or a cal 50 for use. The loader had a SAW that could be mounted for him. Why have the coax be a 7.62mm and then have to carry additional linked ammo which could be mixed up under pressure? Especially for only one weapon? In fact, I think the coax could be used elswhere on the vehicle if necessary.....?

[Travis McGee]

Weight. Those guns weigh a LOT. The 240s are lighter.

I saw a picture of some real-deal SF humvees at the LV SHOT Show. (An SF secior NCO was there shopping, and we spent a long while chatting.) His modified hummers had NO doors,for faster exiting. They had FOUR 240 mounts, two on each side kind of like this picture, and two on the aft corners. These "raiding" humvees had special "running boards" along each side, and the back. There were special hand holds welded on. All loaded for a fast raid, they can carry 16 shooters, inside and hanging on! And they used these types of double-armed machine gun pivot mounts. (They also carried M-2 50 calibers and M-19 40mm guns.)

[Travis McGee]

See 33, especially the part about the running boards for raiding parties.

[Lurker]

Gee, do you think they forgot anything?

L

[Travis McGee]

It's pretty well packed, that's for sure!

[archy]

Your coax was an M240, 7.62mm

The M249 SAW is 5.56mm.

Whatchu tink, archy?

Not necessarily. Some of us had to suffer with the Generally Electric M73 or it's not much improved version, the M219. And some of us really old treadheads made do with the older M37 Browning, an upgraded and modernized version of the WWII .30 Browning M1919A4E1.

[archy]

How much more weight in armor and Gun mounts can a Humvee handle ?

Where are all the armoured personnel carriers?

Many have been supplied to hopefully friendly nations as part of our FMAP, the Foreign Military Aid Program. And many have been stripped of powerpacks and fuel tanks, and dumped offshore as *artificial reefs* in fish breeding grounds.

[archy]

I dunno, a M240 is still only a 5.56mm. I think this is a pretty weak round to have mounted on a vehicle. I think I'd rather have the reach and clout provided by a MA-DEUCE cal .50 or even a MK19 40mm! That might be the tanker in me a talkin' but I was an Infantry Officer before I was a tanker and we put the MK19 on our FAV's and it worked great.

Nope. The M240 is a 7,62 NATO, the replacement for our aging M60 *pig* and the nearly worthless M73/M219 GE co-ax. Essentially the FN-MAG used by numerous other armies worldwide, notably the Brits as the L7 *Gimpy* [From GIn'ril PUrpose MAchineY-gun, the way a Brit pronounces it] and now, happilly, the Australians as well. Seems the Israelis and Rhodesians were on to a good thing back in the 1960s and '70s, too good to keep to themselves.

But that's not to suggest that the M249 SAW and other versions of the 5,56mm FN mini-version of the GPMG don't have their uses as well. Cranked up to its highest rate of fire, the SAW puts out 20 rounds of 5,56mm per second at 1200 rounds per minute...and from a vehicle mount meant for a M240 or M2 .50 caliber, a pair of guns can be fitted...that's a LOT of firepower. See what one happy user of the M249 SAW thinks of it *here.* The comments made by my Australian pal who uses one of their F89 version are firmly in agreement; these things are really the modern descendent of the much-loved Browning Automatic Rifle...or, to the Brits, their old Bren Gun.

[archy]

Can I get a drivers side mount too?

Don't see why not. The Brits and Aussie Land Rovers have 'em.

Oh wait...that's not the driver....