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Though I'm not Catholic, I've studied the Shroud of Turin and watched a multitude of documentaries over the years about it. I've always been drawn to them, always fascinated by them. I believe the Shroud is what it is, "The Burial Cloth of Jesus Christ".

Which is why I found I HAD to pull research regarding it after seeing "The Passion of The Christ". I'm glad I did.

They say the movie is TOO VIOLENT. This article and Dr. Rabil's research only verified what we just watched. Jesus was flayed open by His scourging before He was cruxified.

But moreover.. Jesus was so brave, and He loved us all so much. But even more amazing He repeatedly said "FORGIVE THEM.. FORGIVE THEM.. FORGIVE THEM".

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".

Even a person who does not realize WHO He is, should have walked away with "that" message alone". Especially in light of His torture and the brutality that was done to Him. Christians aren't the ones who are crying foul here. We are just retelling what happened to our precious Lord! How precious He is!!

There was NO anti-semetism in this movie. Jesus is a Jew "and" a Rabbi. It would be the epitomy of "IGNORANCE" to believe it was anti-semetic.

But it is so irrational to not come away with the overpowering feeling of LOVE, FORGIVENESS, and SACRIFICE this movie shows all of us.

I do not hate EVEN those who did this to Jesus. If He didn't, then how dare I?

But I wanted to point out that the Shroud, PROVES that the voilence that was bestowed upon Jesus, did indeed happen. 120 wounds on his back and calves, his right eye from his CAP of thorns, his nose. The Shroud tells a story. The MOVIE allowed us to really SEE and FEEL in very real ways, what our Father went through. My elderly parents (both in their 80's) said "They always knew Jesus was crucified, but they never really "felt" it like this. Though very devoted Christians. This movie changed the level of understanding for them. And they are really greatful for it.

He bore our sins.

I kept saying under my breath throughout the movie:

"Thank you Jesus".. "Thank you". "Oh no".. "Oh Jesus.. I'm so sorry"..and then again.. "Thank you Jesus" and "I love you Jesus"!

And at the end.. when HE LIVED AGAIN.. I said softly "PRAISE GOD"!!!

Did I cry at times. Yes. Mel Gibson did an excellent job of FINALLY putting a very human side to Jesus. And He was human! But I wasn't sobbing. Because there is also GREAT JOY to know He came here for us.

We "are" after all the sinners He died for. But I do not feel guilt. That isn't what Jesus wants for or from us. He is a LOVING Father. He wants so much more for us than that.

I'm just thankful that Mr. Gibson MADE this movie, and PRAY that it will counter all the EVIL that is against it, and that has been working in our society.

So I hope you will ping your friends to this article about the SHROUD OF TURIN.

IMHO it is "PROOF" that the violence that was done to Jesus did happen.

And this movie is PROOF that Jesus FORGAVE His enemies and those who crucified Him.

Wouldn't it be nice if say those in the Middle East could LEARN from a movie like this?

FRegards FRiends

I believe the Shroud is what it is, "The Burial Cloth of Jesus Christ".

Study your bible, you'll find that Jesus never had a burial cloth. HE had linen clothing and a napkin placed over HIS face. No Burial Cloth. John 20:7

The Shroud is not authentic. Jesus was buried in a burial wrap that consisted of strips of fabric that totally wrapped His body in a cocoon fashion with a cloth covering His face. When He was risen this was the striking thing the disciples saw that convinced them of a supernatural event.......an empty cocoon!

"The face shows bruising on the nose; Jesus was struck on the nose by a high priest"

Uh-Oh, don't tell Krauthammer, Safire or Mona Charen. They'll say this is an unfair depiction and might rile people to think that the Jewish High priest didn't exactly like Jesus.

RightOnline; Thank you so much for sending me to the Shroud of Turin Thread. Wow!! I'm going to ping a few people from that thread too. I think they will be interested in this thread. Thanks again!!

From what we could see after viewing the movie for the second time, the only deviation was in the crucifixion scene and in where Mr. Gibson placed the nails. (It should have been in the wrists). Otherwise he followed the Gospels perfectly. He did put a human face on Jesus, which was *in our opinion* a good thing to do. (As to the critics saying the Jewish people were made to be "hooked nosed".. how racist was that? Peter had a bump on his nose, and he was a handsome and wonderful actor. Jesus didn't have a perfect nose either,.. but He was portrayed beautifully. We didn't really NOTICE noses.. we were too busy watching the movie and taking away the POSITIVE message(s). How "shallow" some people?) How sad.. we'll pray for them!!! We love what Jesus says about how easy it is to LOVE THOSE THAT YOU ALREADY LOVE.. BUT WHAT REWARD IS THERE IN THAT?

The Shroud of Turin is real, we have "no doubt" of it. I would love to see a documentary or a presentation by the STURP Team!

Also, on the thread you directed me to, I found this posted by Aske15!! In light of the release of "The Passion of the Christ" movie. This thread is so appropriate! WHEN WE SAW THE MOVIE FOR THE SECOND TIME LAST NIGHT AFTER READING ABOUT THE SHROUD OF TURIN.. WE KNEW MR. GIBSON HAD NOT EMBELLISHED. It was different the second time.

God Bless all of you! VH&W ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's an excerpt from the CRC on the work the STURP team:

"Professor Morano, of the electronic Microscope Centre of Vercelli and of the Institute of Pathological Anatomy of Turin, is the first to have studied the ultrastructural aspects of a thread of the Shroud by means of an electronic scanning microscope. Progress on the classical electronic transmitting microscope has been considerable. This quite recent technique consists in exploring the sample by means of an electronic beam focused on a very limited point and scanning it according to a trajectory like that used for a television picture. Now an examination, carried out in this three-dimensional perspective, on a thread of linen a hundred years old shows flattened and completely smooth fibres, whereas the fibres from a thread of the Shroud show a cylindrical and dirty ("sporco") aspect, encrusted with every sort of foreign body: spores, pollen grains.... exactly like the fibres of a two thousand year old cloth shrouding an Egyptian mummy in the Egyptian Museum of Turin. A further decisive proof of the Shroud's authenticity."

Also from the CRC: THE DATING OF THE IMAGE BY MEANS OF PALEOGRAPHY THE IMAGE DATED TO WITHIN TWO YEARS

Our historical investigation finds striking confirmation through paleography, which dates the image to within two years. Our late lamented friend, Father Filas, sent us the complete file of this discovery, which, to his credit, he brought to completion though not having initiated it himself. This fact needs to be recalled, for it all began with a consensus of American scientists, vouched for by the preliminary work of the STURP team at Albuquerque in 1977 and by Jumper's communication to the Congress of Turin in 1978. But it all ended in such a persecution of Father Filas starting from the meeting at Los Alamos in 1979, that to this day his file is as good as banned worldwide.

Why? For one reason only, which is totally alien to science: because we have here a dating of the image, and not just of the cloth, dating it to almost the actual year of the Event itself. It is the stamp or seal of Pontius Pilate, giving a date to which no scientist can raise any objection.

PILATE'S LEPTON

It is the three-dimensional analysis which gave birth to this hypothesis, but even a look at an ordinary photograph will clearly reveal a kind of disc placed over each eyelid, dark on the positive and light on the negative. An enlargement of this imprint, on the right eyelid, enabled Father Filas to recognize the imprint of a coin struck under Pontius Pilate: the same size, same cut, the same effigy, the astrologer's staff, the same inscription recognizable, from four quite legible letters, as a certain coin duly catalogued for the years 16, 17 and 18 of Tiberius Caesar, which would be the years 29, 30 and 31 of our era.

AN ANOMALY THAT DOES NOT DECEIVE

Confirmed by three-dimensional analysis, the discovery was found to be definitively corroborated by its very fruitfulness, for it led to some unexpected progress in numismatic science. Four Greek letters, Y CAI, are in fact all that are needed to reconstruct the inscription TIBEPIO [Y KAI] CAPOC, "of Tiberius Caesar". But there is an anomaly: on the Holy Shroud a Latin C replaces the initial Greek K of KAICAPOC, which figures on all the coin collections known up to 1980.

Thereafter, to those who accused Father Filas of letting his imagination run away with him or of taking his desires for reality, he answered that, not being a numismatist, he had so little desire to see a coin of Pilate's that "before I accidentally stumbled on this, he wrote to me, I would not have known a Pilate coin from a hole in the wall".

He was obliged, therefore, to consult the numismatic specialists, and it was then that his discovery proved to be so little the work of his imagination that it was responsible for a positive progress in the study of numismatics itself. It revealed that the anomaly observed on the Holy Shroud and already recognized as being of common usage in inscriptions but hitherto unknown in numismatics, existed identically on other collection coins struck under Pontius Pilate, which no one had noticed before.

We have here a document dated within a year or two by the express Will of Him Who caused this Image to be imprinted on the cloth. For one would have expected to see shards of broken pottery used for covering the eyes, as was the Jewish custom, but it would not have been possible to read a date from them. Whereas the little coin proclaims: it is "under Pontius Pilate" that this Man suffered.

Your comments, your expression of gratitude and submission, are moving.

I kept saying under my breath throughout the movie:

"Thank you Jesus".. "Thank you". "Oh no".. "Oh Jesus.. I'm so sorry"..and then again.. "Thank you Jesus" and "I love you Jesus"!

And at the end.. when HE LIVED AGAIN.. I said softly "PRAISE GOD"!!!

Amen. AMEN!

Here is a link where you will see the face of Jesus on "The Shroud of Turin". It is so clear. But sadly, It is also an alarming link, as it tells what bad shape the Shroud is in right now. (Sorry if I PING anyone twice or more. I'm trying to ping anyone I think will be interested).

http://www.shroud.com/restored.htm#dreisbach

I found the link because someone tried to debunk the Shroud of Turin. That naysayer led to many more positive links than negative ones regarding the Shroud! There are always naysayers in life, but "good" can come from even their negativity. :o)

HOWEVER, there is VERY "recent" and "not very good" news on how "The Shroud of Turin" is being taken care of!!

I don't believe it's "intentional".... just horribly "misguided". It is however "heartbreaking" and even "SHOCKING". I think those who understand "preservation and restoration methods" will be as shocked as I am.

For those Christians who are interested in this "HOLY GARMENT" pay particular attention to "Comments on the Shroud "Restoration" by William Meacham". The other scientists in this link are equally alarmed regarding it's care. Meacham has links where you can go view clips of the Shroud being examined.

Look here: http://www.hku.hk/hkprehis/shrdvid2.htm CLICK ON THE PICTURES AFTER THEY LOAD (you will need DSL or CABLE) (The first picture shows them scraping away burns, when they should have cut them away and saved the clippings. The second video shows "bare hands" sewing. All the while mixing their DNA with that on the Shroud and spreading DNA everywhere. The Third video shows bright lights on, while a Priest talks. Lighting can be very damaging to old linen. And I guess this recent "restoration" took a month. They say the Shroud looks darker :o(

They vaccumed up stuff, were scraping material...and well, I guess you'll need to read the link. I'm pretty upset myself after reading this. We need to "pray" that the Shroud is taken care of better than this. Like I said, .. the caretakers were just terribly misguided. But we need for it to be cared for better than this! I was so disheartened while studying the links and watching the video's!!!

I'm extremely worried about the preservation of this Sacred Garment. Many PRAYERS are needed!!

LASTLY,.. LET ME ADD,.. I THINK THIS IS A TIME FOR ALL "CHRISTIANS" TO COME TOGETHER!!! It is NOT a time to blame the Catholic Church for their care of the Shroud, or anything like that. There is so much EVIL going on, that we TRULY MUST UNITE. (If that isn't OBVIOUS I honestly don't know what is). GAY MARRIAGES, BREASTS BEING EXPOSED, BABIES BEING MURDERED.. so please, lets keep this debate civil.. I implore everyone!

That so MANY Christians have UNITED AGAINST EVIL and for this movie "THE Passion of The Christ" is wonderful!! Let us continue in that vein! But also let us pray for this HOLY GARMENT!!

The Scientist on the above link state that this was all done to try to "preserve" the Shroud. The Church just treated it "Like an Antique Table Linen" (though a terribly misguided and un-educated decision, in all the Scientists opinions, I REPEAT it was NOT done in malice.. the Catholic Church would NOT do that! I'm NOT Catholic, but even I know that!!). The Scientists are not pleased as you will see. The intelligentsia in the Scientific Community are just sick over this!!

I must say, after reading this article, having a close friend with a PHD in Archeology, and having a deep interest in this field, watching documentary's and being hugely interested in all this (but admittedly having limited knowledge).. I am deeply concerned with the treatment the Shroud is getting. After all,.. IMO, this is the Burial Cloth of Jesus Christ!!

The Catholic Church must allow EXPERTS from the Scientific Community to have more input into the FUTURE of the Shroud. I am not saying we want OTHERS TO TOUCH IT OR TO TAKE CARE OF IT.. just to DECIDE HOW IT "IS" DONE!!

To lose this Garment, after it surviving for all these hundreds of decades would be a HUGE tragedy!! Here is the link again:

http://www.shroud.com/restored.htm#dreisbach

It is apparent there was a VAST Scientific community of Scholars that were "IN PLACE" available, waiting, and there to advise the Church on this "well in advance" and have been for MANY YEARS! In fact, they had all met just prior to this RECENT restoration!!

Sadly, they church went ahead with this "ill advised" restoration anyway (They mis-interpreted the advice of a deceased scientist). We do need to write to the Vatican and voice our displeasure to them! We can't sit silent when it is of such great importance! (Is there anything MORE important to Christians?) I'm so hurt and dis-heartened!

Anyway.....

For those who didn't believe the Shroud was real, BESIDES reading the links above, here's something else to read.

Here's an excerpt from the CRC on the work the STURP team:

"Professor Morano, of the electronic Microscope Centre of Vercelli and of the Institute of Pathological Anatomy of Turin, is the first to have studied the ultrastructural aspects of a thread of the Shroud by means of an electronic scanning microscope. Progress on the classical electronic transmitting microscope has been considerable. This quite recent technique consists in exploring the sample by means of an electronic beam focused on a very limited point and scanning it according to a trajectory like that used for a television picture.

Now an examination, carried out in this three-dimensional perspective, on a thread of linen a hundred years old shows flattened and completely smooth fibres, whereas the fibres from a thread of the Shroud show a cylindrical and dirty ("sporco") aspect, encrusted with every sort of foreign body: spores, pollen grains.... exactly like the fibres of a two thousand year old cloth shrouding an Egyptian mummy in the Egyptian Museum of Turin. A further decisive proof of the Shroud's authenticity."

Also from the CRC: THE DATING OF THE IMAGE BY MEANS OF PALEOGRAPHY THE IMAGE DATED TO WITHIN TWO YEARS

Our historical investigation finds striking confirmation through paleography, which dates the image to within two years. Our late lamented friend, Father Filas, sent us the complete file of this discovery, which, to his credit, he brought to completion though not having initiated it himself. This fact needs to be recalled, for it all began with a consensus of American scientists, vouched for by the preliminary work of the STURP team at Albuquerque in 1977 and by Jumper's communication to the Congress of Turin in 1978. But it all ended in such a persecution of Father Filas starting from the meeting at Los Alamos in 1979, that to this day his file is as good as banned worldwide.

Why? For one reason only, which is totally alien to science: because we have here a dating of the image, and not just of the cloth, dating it to almost the actual year of the Event itself. It is the stamp or seal of Pontius Pilate, giving a date to which no scientist can raise any objection.

PILATE'S LEPTON It is the three-dimensional analysis which gave birth to this hypothesis, but even a look at an ordinary photograph will clearly reveal a kind of disc placed over each eyelid, dark on the positive and light on the negative. An enlargement of this imprint, on the right eyelid, enabled Father Filas to recognize the imprint of a coin struck under Pontius Pilate: the same size, same cut, the same effigy, the astrologer's staff, the same inscription recognizable, from four quite legible letters, as a certain coin duly catalogued for the years 16, 17 and 18 of Tiberius Caesar, which would be the years 29, 30 and 31 of our era.

AN ANOMALY THAT DOES NOT DECEIVE
Confirmed by three-dimensional analysis, the discovery was found to be definitively corroborated by its very fruitfulness, for it led to some unexpected progress in numismatic science. Four Greek letters, Y CAI, are in fact all that are needed to reconstruct the inscription TIBEPIO [Y KAI] CAPOC, "of Tiberius Caesar". But there is an anomaly: on the Holy Shroud a Latin C replaces the initial Greek K of KAICAPOC, which figures on all the coin collections known up to 1980.

Thereafter, to those who accused Father Filas of letting his imagination run away with him or of taking his desires for reality, he answered that, not being a numismatist, he had so little desire to see a coin of Pilate's that "before I accidentally stumbled on this, he wrote to me, I would not have known a Pilate coin from a hole in the wall".

He was obliged, therefore, to consult the numismatic specialists, and it was then that his discovery proved to be so little the work of his imagination that it was responsible for a positive progress in the study of numismatics itself. It revealed that the anomaly observed on the Holy Shroud and already recognized as being of common usage in inscriptions but hitherto unknown in numismatics, existed identically on other collection coins struck under Pontius Pilate, which no one had noticed before.

We have here a document dated within a year or two by the express Will of Him Who caused this Image to be imprinted on the cloth.

For one would have expected to see shards of broken pottery used for covering the eyes, as was the Jewish custom, but it would not have been possible to read a date from them.

Whereas the little coin proclaims: it is "under Pontius Pilate" that this Man suffered.

I saw an interesting program this evening.

I just finished watching The World Over Live (EWTN.) they had on Jim Caviezel. One of the e-mails was in regard to last night's Hardball, they had on a Bishop who called The Passion, pornographic and said that in the movie Jesus never said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

The response was really quite interesting. First Raymond Arroyo, commented that the same bishop has written several novel, that are rather pornographic in nature. As to the lines spoken in the movie. Jim Caviezel said that Father forgive them was actually used three times during the movie.

It's not fake. Bump to read later. I know it's not fake because most of the representations of Jesus match the negative image on that shroud from centuries before it was ever seen. That's supernatural.