"The Passion" too violent? The "Shroud of Turin" shows it happened!

The Diocese of Charleston ^ | March 21, 2002 | Dr. William E. Rabil

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Shroud of Turin history presented in Upstate
Retired surgeon relays his nearly 40 years of research on the Shroud of Turin

By SHEILA OJENDYK

GREENVILLE — Dr. William E. Rabil has no doubt that the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ. Rabil, a retired general surgeon from Winston-Salem, N.C., began studying the shroud in the late 1950s and has been lecturing about it for nearly 40 years. He made two slide presentations to parishioners at St. Mary Church on March 6.

Rabil began with a brief history of the shroud. After the crucifixion, the shroud was originally hidden in Jerusalem and was thought to have been moved to Edessa (Urfa, Turkey) after Jerusalem fell to the Romans in A.D. 70. In 944, the Byzantine Imperial Army invaded Edessa to recover the shroud and brought it to Constantinople (now Istanbul). Raiders from the Fourth Crusade invaded Istanbul in 1294 and took the shroud to Europe. It is believed to have been hidden by the Knights Templar until Geoffrey DeCharney exhibited it in Liren, France, in 1353. From that point forward, its history is fully documented. The shroud was moved to Turin, Italy, in 1578 and has remained there ever since. It is kept in a silver reliquary behind bullet-proof glass inside the Chapel of the Shroud.

The shroud was first photographed in 1898 by Italian photographer Secondo Pia. His first shot was a misfire, but his second shot caused him to fall to his knees. On the negative was the "positive image of Jesus Christ." The markings on the shroud are negative images, and it took the photographic reversal of light and dark to reveal the positive image of a man's body.

While the evidence cannot prove conclusively that the image on the shroud is Jesus, it is definitely the image of man between 5 feet 11 inches and 6 feet tall who weighed approximately 175 pounds. Forensic medical investigation confirms that the man died from crucifixion.

The body in the shroud was unclothed. All four books of the Gospel tell of Roman soldiers casting lots for Jesus' garments.

The shroud was not wrapped around the body, as one might expect. The body was placed on top of the shroud with the feet at one end. The other end of the shroud was brought over the head and spread on top of the body, ending at the feet.

Jesus' torture and crucifixion were much bloodier than most paintings have ever depicted. The back of the body in the shroud shows multiple scourge marks from the nape of the neck to the feet. The Romans used a flagrum for scourging. A flagrum was a whip with bone or metal-tipped leather thongs that was specifically designed to tear flesh. One-hundred twenty scourge marks were counted on the body.

Blood had not been washed from the body in the shroud. The Sabbath was fast approaching when Jesus was taken down from the cross, and he had to be buried before sundown. The doctor emphasized that Jesus' body would have gone into rigor mortis almost immediately after death because of the trauma of crucifixion, which would have made washing very difficult. Jewish burial practices also precluded washing blood that was flowing at the time of death.

The face shows bruising on the nose; Jesus was struck on the nose by a high priest. The body had a mustache and beard, and there is evidence that facial hair had been plucked.

There were no broken bones, but some bones were displaced. There is evidence of spike wounds to both wrists and the feet. Forensic investigators have proved that the spikes were not pounded into Jesus' palms because the weight of an adult would have torn completely through all tissues, and he would have fallen off the cross. The spikes were pounded into his wrists, and the bones separated. One foot was nailed over the other.

According to Dr. John Heller in his book, Report on the Shroud of Turin (Houghton Mifflin Co., 1983), "There is a swelling of both shoulders, with abrasions indicating something heavy and rough had been carried across the man's shoulders within hours of death."

There is no pigment on the linen cloth of the shroud. If paint had been used, the wound pattern would have become obliterated. The blood stains on the back of the skull demonstrate the unique cohesive properties of blood. No other substance behaves the same way. Scientific testing has confirmed that the stains are blood and body fluids.

The forensic examination shows that the crown of thorns was actually a cap over the entire scalp. A painting done from the shroud image shows a thorn above Jesus' right eye.

Some photos of the shroud show the image of coins placed over both eyes, a Jewish burial custom. The image exactly matches that of a coin minted during the reign of Pontius Pilate between A.D. 29 and 33.

Botanical experts have examined fragments of the shroud and found spores and seeds from 27 plants that are indigenous to Jerusalem. Geological analysis of particles showed limestone indigenous to caves surrounding Jerusalem and suggested that the shroud was placed in a damp tomb or cave.

Jesus died after about three hours on the cross, which was considered fast for a man of his age and physical condition. Medical experts theorize that he was severely weakened by the brutal scourging. Death by crucifixion is very painful. The muscles of the arms, chest, and legs quickly go into spasm, and the victim dies of asphyxiation.

The shroud has been studied and tested carefully by surgeons, forensic scientists, nuclear scientists, radiologists, Biblical scholars, botanists, and historians. Experts have disagreed with each other and challenged each other's theories and tests. Nobody will ever prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Shroud of Turin was the burial cloth of Jesus Christ — but nobody can prove it wasn't either.

[Ann Archy]

What is the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano??

[R. Scott]

They say the movie is TOO VIOLENT. This article and Dr. Rabil's research only verified what we just watched. Jesus was flayed open by His scourging before He was crucified.

Yes, Roman crucifixion was violent and bloody. So was feeding people to the lions and Nero’s use of Christians as human torches to light up his dinner parties.
Does this mean we need movies showing realistic depictions of Christian martyrs being torn and eaten by animals, or burned alive while covered with pitch?
Violence sells and this movie shows that religion still sells, so I guess we’ll be seeing even more gruesome movies in the near future - in the name of religion.

[happydogdesign]

Actually, the original owner was a French mercenary who used it bilk the pilgrims and sick out of money. Of course, religious charlatans still do that today on TV and the internet, so there's nothing exceptional about that. The local bishop investigated the fraud, found the artist, reported it to the Pope, and they made the guy knock it off.

I must be off, as my Aunt Tilly, while dining at Cracker Barrel, spilled sausage gravy down the voluminous bosom of her favorite muu muu. The resulting stain, if turned sideways and viewed at the right angle of light streaming through the cracked window of her laundry room, appears to depict the unicorns showing up late for the departure of Noah's Ark. Prove that it is not a miracle, oh ye of little faith!

[theDentist]

First off, I never said it was a "fake". There is reason for skepticism that this is THE BURIAL CLOTH of Christ. Scientists mostly believe carbon dating is the most accurate means of determining ages of artifacts.
And if it is from that age, how many people were crucified then? Thousands? Millions? There is reason for healthy skepticism. I'd like to belief it's real, but there's a lot of unknowns at play here, and the chance this is really THE CLOTH is awfully slim at best.

[RightOnline]

Prove what? A ridiculous assertion that the Shroud...........no, let me go back and see just how you phrased this...........

"The Shroud of Turin is real ONLY if Jesus is NOT the Christ(messiah), IMO"

It's real ONLY if Jesus isn't the Christ. What the hell does that mean????

You then have the nerve to ask me to PROVE what a ridiculous statement you made?

Jeez, son.............stay away from debating. Stick to your day job.

[dmanLA]

"Check your reading comprehension before throwing around ad hominem attacks."

Don't worry. Jesus/Yeshua said believers will be persecuted for following Him. The 'attacks' are similar to the High Priest tearing his clothes... (wink, wink)

[happydogdesign]

The Catholic Church is very precise on these matters.

Yes they are-and they say:

"Owing mainly to the researches of Canon Ulysse Chevalier a series of documents was discovered which clearly proved that in 1389 the Bishop of Troyes appealed to Clement VII, the Avignon Pope then recognized in France, to put a stop to the scandals connected to the Shroud preserved at Lirey. It was, the Bishop declared, the work of an artist who some years before had confessed to having painted it but it was then being exhibited by the Canons of Lirey in such a way that the populace believed that it was the authentic shroud of Jesus Christ. The pope, without absolutely prohibiting the exhibition of the Shroud, decided after full examination that in the future when it was shown to the people, the priest should declare in a loud voice that it was not the real shroud of Christ, but only a picture made to represent it. The authenticity of the documents connected with this appeal is not disputed. Moreover, the grave suspicion thus thrown upon the relic is immensely strengthened by the fact that no intelligible account, beyond wild conjecture, can be given of the previous history of the Shroud or its coming to Lirey."

Source:CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Shroud of Turin

[auggy]

"Anyone that believes wouldn't need it and whoever needs it to believe DON'T."

No one here needs it to believe.

I don't understand the point you were trying to make about a real God would not leave the shroud here for people to find.

I see reasons a real God would. When Jesus was on Earth, did he not perform miracles for the nonbelievers? 2000 years later, real miracles are still needed by some and the others,(believers), it just reinforces their faith. I find it exciting and like most, want it to be the real McCoy. If, it isn't , my faith is not diminished in the least. There will always be nonbelievers. Like the other guy being crucified next to Jesus, the one that was laughing, and then had his eyes pecked out by a crow.

The Devil was always in the background, in the movie. Ready to take the nonbelievers.

[hosepipe]

[ It's real ONLY if Jesus isn't the Christ. What the hell does that mean???? ]

to wit: allegations that this artifact proves anything real about the Christ flys in the face of Jesus resurrection. Did Jesus arise bodily or did'nt he.?. His whole body or part of it (leaving scabs) ?. Did his murder leave "clues" as in other murders or was it miraculous ?. Many questions, when resurrection is considered, that muddies a very simple event, anyone can understand.. Was Jesus "passion" special or was it just like any old murder or political oppression ?

Thats part of what I mean... Maybe God is not able to resurrect himself bodily leaving NO CLUES therefore stopping any accusations that he was spirited away and NOT resurrected ?.. I say he could, AND DID, like that. AND that the shroud is plain old superstitious Thomas like non belief falling prey to psuedo-science except that Thomas was an "apostle" deserving of in your face proof which he got regrettably as he himself demurred..

What say YE!..

[hosepipe]

[ real miracles are still needed by some and the others,(believers), it just reinforces their faith. ]

I don't believe in miracles .....
I rely on them...

[Buggman]

Um . . . I'm still not following the train of your thoughts, and I assure you that I'm not be purposefully dense. It is true that Jesus was the most anti-religious person to ever walk the earth--we're completely on the same page here.

What does that have to do with the issue of whether the Shroud is the genuine article or not? A historical artifact is just that: Historical. But the Bible itself is a historical artifact, a collection of histories, poetry, prophecies, and letters written by various authors over the course of two millennia--and yet the single work of one great Author at the same time. It's existence certainly doesn't invalidate the work of our Lord--it records it.

Likewise, if the Shroud is real, it's existence does not invalidate the work and suffering of Jesus on the cross. It records it. What's the difference?

[madison10]

Man your whole post is confusing!! Of course His resurrection was "special."

From what I've seen, heard and read, the Shroud is like a snapshot negative taken AT the moment of the Resurrection, like an X-ray. The imprint is caused by radiation.

Think about what type of energy/power would have been expended to raise Jesus, the Son of God, from the dead. The Lord Jesus was brought back from the Gates of Hell...it would have taken POWER beyond comprehension.

The Shroud may or may not be authentic, but the image is not painted on. Even if it's fake, the person who created it was an artistic genius who knew everything there was to know about a crucifixion. THAT would be an amazing feat in itself.

Of course, I come from the angle that the Shroud is real.

[Jaded]

Now for the rest of the article (from your source).....

This name is primarily given to a relic now preserved at Turin, for which the claim is made that it is the actual "clean linen cloth" in which Joseph of Arimathea wrapped the body of Jesus Christ (Matthew 27:59). This relic, though blackened by age, bears the faint but distinct impress of a human form both back and front. The cloth is about 13 1/2 feet long and 4 1/4 feet wide. If the marks we perceive were caused by human body, it is clear that the body (supine) was laid lengthwise along one half of the shroud while the other half was doubled back over the head to cover the whole front of the body from the face to the feet. The arrangement is well illustrated in the miniature of Giulio Clovio, which also gives a good representation of what was seen upon the shroud about the year 1540.

The cloth now at Turin can be clearly traced back to the Lirey in the Diocese of Troyes, where we first hear of it about the year 1360. In 1453 it was at Chambéry in Savoy, and there in 1532 it narrowly escaped being consumed by a fire which by charring the corners of the folds has left a uniform series of marks on either side of the image. Since 1578 it has remained at Turin where it is now only exposed for veneration at long intervals.

That the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin is taken for granted, in various pronouncements of the Holy See cannot be disputed. An Office and Mass "de Sancta Sindone" was formerly approved by Julius II in the Bull "Romanus Pontifex" of 25 April, 1506, in the course of which the Pope speaks of "that most famous Shroud (proeclarissima sindone) in which our Savior was wrapped when he lay in the tomb and which is now honorably and devoutly preserved in a silver casket." Moreover, the same Pontiff speaks of the treaties upon the precious blood. Composed by his predecessor, Sixtus IV, in which Sixtus states that in the Shroud "men may look upon the true blood and portrait of Jesus Christ himself." A certain difficulty was caused by the existence elsewhere of other Shrouds similarly impressed with the figure of Jesus Christ and some of these cloths, notably those of Besançon, Cadouin, Champiègne, Xabregas, etc., also claimed to be the authentic linen sindon provided by Joseph of Arimathea, but until the close of the last century no great attack was made upon the genuineness of the Turin relic. In 1898 when the Shroud was solemnly exposed, permission was given to photograph it and a sensation was caused by the discovery that the image upon the linen was apparently a negative -- in other words that the photographic negative taken from this offered a more recognizable picture of a human face than the cloth itself or any positive print. In the photographic negative, the lights and the shadows were natural, in the linen or the print, they were inverted. Three years afterwards, Dr. Paul Vignon read a remarkable paper before the Académie des Sciences in which he maintained that the impression upon the Shroud was a "vaporigraph" caused by the ammoniacal emanations radiating from the surface of Christ's body after so violent a death. Such vapours, as he professed to have proved experimentally, were capable of producing a deep reddish brown stain, varying in intensity with the distance, upon a cloth impregnated with oil and aloes. The image upon the Shroud was therefore a natural negative and as such completely beyond the comprehension or the skill of any medieval forger.

Plausible as this contention appeared, a most serious historical difficulty had meanwhile been brought to light.



.... there still seems to be a great deal of debate on this one...

[madison10]

Plausible as this contention appeared, a most serious historical difficulty had meanwhile been brought to light.

This sounds plausible: Shroud was a "vaporigraph" caused by the ammoniacal emanations radiating from the surface of Christ's body after so violent a death. Such vapours, as he professed to have proved experimentally, were capable of producing a deep reddish brown stain, varying in intensity with the distance, upon a cloth impregnated with oil and aloes

What is the difficulty? The carbon dating?

[Swordmaker]

Shroud PING

As always, if you want to be included on the Shroud list or removed, freepmail me.

[SuziQ]

but the pictures (they are actually negatives) of the Turin are breath taking! You actually see the face of Jesus!

There are icons painted in the early centuries, well before the Middle Ages, in which the face of Jesus is almost identical to the face on the shroud, right down to individual marks on His face. There is supposition that the shroud, having been taken to the area around Turkey, had been seen by religious communities, members of which created the paintings and icon art.

[Swordmaker]

Carbon dating shows the shroud to be from 1350-ish, just before it was discovered.

It has now been proven that the carbon dating of the material taken from the Shroud was of a combination of original shroud material and 15th century reweaving using materials from the 15th Century.

The orignal shroud threads were spun with a "Z" twist... the threads used in the French invisible reweaving repair technique have an "S" twist... exactly opposite. The newer material floresces while the new does not because of a different fullering technique between the original linen and the linen threads made in the 15th century. The sample taken for the carbon dating was taken from the ONE area the sceintists who set the original protocol all agreed should not be included.

[hosepipe]

[ Um . . . I'm still not following the train of your thoughts, and I assure you that I'm not be purposefully dense. It is true that Jesus was the most anti-religious person to ever walk the earth--we're completely on the same page here. ]

Hmmmm.... fall on your own hand grenade LoL..
I'm very good looking but nearly as intelligent as I appear (since I dove in here).. Heck!.. Max Cleland lost 3 limbs for that stunt.. I've already been too candid... I only meant to say the shroud was superstitious you'd a thought I said one of the really genuine pieces of the cross sold in some places in Jerusalem was bogus...or that some saints tooth .. was just a tooth.. LoL.. I'm already doing the backstroke in a back current of wishful thinking..