The Purpose of the Passion (Not all believers thought Jesus had to die for our sins)

Dallas Morning News ^ | 2-20-2004 | Susan Albach/Hogan

[Fester Chugabrew]

Believe me, this whole thing was not waiting for your repentance. If it were up to you, well . . . I'd never know you. Thanks to His sacrifice I know you like my own brother. Well, by faith, that is.

[L`enn]

One question I have is what went down in Jerusalem from Palm Sunday to Good Friday to turn the storry from "Hosanna in the Highest" to "Crucify Him , Crucify Him" That has to the biggest drop in poll numbers in history in the shortest amount of time. Was it a function of just whipped up rabble-rousing of a wishy-washy populace? Or was there more?

[Arkinsaw]

"It doesn't make sense to me that God would need to be satisfied by sending his son to be killed," said Kip Taylor, a religion major at Texas Christian University. "That's a vengeful God and not a God I want to worship."

Kippy thinks that the full range of God's emotions can be described like those of a human being. Kippy thinks that he can describe God's motivations and thus judge God. Just because it doesn't make sense to Kippy, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. Kippy needs to go back to skateboarding, because religion is not his bag apparently.

[rwfromkansas]

Amen.

[linton59]

No, original sin has nothing to do with sex. It is God telling Adam and Eve that everything is theirs BUT don't eat from that tree or you will surely die, and Satan saying, "Oh come on now, you're not gonna die!!!" and Adam and Eve listening to Satan and not God. That is original sin...our deliberate disobedience...inherited like freckels, thanks to Adam and Eve. It is my darling, adorable, blessed, baptized 14 month old grandson DELIBERATELY crawling to the forbidden dangerous corner of the kitchen, looking over his shoulder and giggling. The sexual ramifications of original sin may manifest themselves years from now, but he, as a child of Adam, manifests "original sin" right now, and has from the day he was born. Blaming it on sex has only added to the mass ignorance of Christianity. Original Sin is willfull disobedience, and ONLY Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, was born without this curse, and the ONLY one able to atone for us. ("Liberal theologians", i.e.false teachers, should, for their own safety, quit now and get a real job...a mighty hot place is reserved for them otherwise.)

[winstonchurchill]

They can and do pray for us.

You checked with them, did you? Since the Bible doesn't mention such a bizarre idea, your source would be what exactly? I know, I know, your "sacred traditions" told you.

Well, I hope you can pardon those of us who cannot credit such "traditions" that may well have been formulated (in part) by pedophiles or hit-and-run drivers. Only the Lord Jesus Christ is worthy of our trust. Accretionist groups like the RCC and the Mormons (who believe they are authorized to add to or take away from the Scripture) are playing with fire. Literally.

[MegaSilver]

"He's pulling one line from Matthew and another from John and creating propaganda in the service of the church's atonement theology."

Yeah, because only liberals say things without agendas. </ sarcasm>

[Just mythoughts]

Here is the problem with ignoring the Apostolic Succession. If every man is his own Pope, then we can decide that Jesus did NOT die for us.

Why then were letters sent to 7 churches if there was to be only one? Each of the churches got a different letter. Only two of the churches had no fault and all this was written by John who had been taken in "Spirit" on the Lords Day and that is yet future.

[MegaSilver]

You checked with them, did you? Since the Bible doesn't mention such a bizarre idea, your source would be what exactly? I know, I know, your "sacred traditions" told you.

< devil's advocate>No offense, but from what tradition do you think the Bible came from?</ devil's advocate>

Well, I hope you can pardon those of us who cannot credit such "traditions" that may well have been formulated (in part) by pedophiles or hit-and-run drivers.

There's a lot about Catholic dogma that I don't agree with. Nevertheless, there are less hateful ways to express disagreement.

[Buggman]

Luther chose to succumb, to violate his solemn vows to God and to create a division in the Body of Christ that endures to this day. So very sad.

Ah, yet another Protestant-basher who doesn't know his history.

Look, I'm not Luther's biggest fan, but the fact is that he tried to work from within the Catholic Church to reform it on a host of issues, such as the sale of indulgences (and I don't think you're going to try to defend that). Your priests chose to kick him out rather than address the problems.

Schismatics is not the worst sin by a long shot. The worst sin is to disobey God for fear of division from men. "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me" (Mt. 10:37). Luther obeyed God, imperfectly to be sure, and the result was not that Protestants left the Church, but that the Church left Rome, which had been horribly abusing the title.

Christ did not found a Church of buildings and stone or hierarchial priests to abuse the laity. "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you" (Lk. 17:20-21).

Now, having said that, do we really need to have this kind of argument over Mel Gibson's film, for crying out loud?

[winstonchurchill]

One question I have is what went down in Jerusalem from Palm Sunday to Good Friday to turn the storry from "Hosanna in the Highest" to "Crucify Him , Crucify Him" That has to the biggest drop in poll numbers in history in the shortest amount of time. Was it a function of just whipped up rabble-rousing of a wishy-washy populace? Or was there more?

I am reminded of those polls in our time which show 10-20% of the populace taking positions in favor of Saddam Hussein, Josef Stalin, cutting and running in Iraq, etc. It always is a scary thought to think there really are people out there somewhere who support such evil schemes and people.

I also think of the supermarket 'strikers' out here in Northern California right now. It occurs that all the 'pickets' are hired for that purpose by the union bosses. There are no real 'strikers.'

It seems to me that some combination of these two approaches explains how the priests and rabbis could turn out a group of crazies to egg on Pontius Pilate.

In short, I doubt they were the same people who were cheering the preceeding week. In fact, it was almost certainly the cheering which led the religious establishment to react the way they did in defense of their "sacred traditions" and their perogatives.

[NYCVirago]

Geez, Louise. It's like what Stephen King once said about the Unitarians -- the religion where belief in God is optional!

[supercat]

Actually, the idea that Jesus Christ had to die for the sins of mankind was debunked by no less a theological scholar than St. Thomas Aquinas. St. Thomas reasoned -- and his logic is so simple that this point is often overlooked -- that an all-powerful God could have Redeemed mankind simply through an act of His will.

Although the Bible clearly commands that the Lord is to be worshipped as Supreme God, and no other shall be put before him, it does not say that no other gods exist. Further, although the Lord may be omnipotent by human standards, that does not mean he isn't bound by certain 'rules', whether self-inflicted or imposed by the existence of other gods.

Indeed, since God and Satan seem to have been battling over the human race since time immemorial, it would seem that if God were truly omnipotent and didn't want Satan to exist, He could simply make it so. Since He has not, there must be a reason. To my mind, the most reasonable explanation is that God is bound by rules of some form, and thus had to do things the way he did. As to what those rules might be, I can't even guess except to note that He seldom performs miracles for which there would be no plausible explanation. If a bus loses its breaks and is carreening down a twisty mountain road, God might add a small rock in the road so as to change the bus' momentum just enough to keep it from going off a cliff, but he won't spontaneously turn the bus into an airplane. The effect may be the same (saving the people on board the bus) but the former would leave open a "rational" explanation (i.e. that the people on the bus simply got lucky).

[winstonchurchill]

from what tradition do you think the Bible came from

I don't know how to break this to you, but the Bible didn't 'come from traditions', it came from manuscripts.

Moreover, it is the height of presumption and arrogance to pretend a connection of the RCC of today (with its various 'traditional' doctrines) and the early church. Somehow, I just can't Peter climbing into his fishing boat in those pretty flowing robes with his pretty white mitre hat with the gold trim on his head. Nor can I see Paul swimming ashore from the shipwreck in his pretty red costume with the heavy gold cross pinned to it.

[AnalogReigns]

" But it's a belief being questioned like never before by some mainline Protestants, particularly the historical peace churches and liberal theologians."

Here is the problem with ignoring the Apostolic Succession. If every man is his own Pope, then we can decide that Jesus did NOT die for us.

Except of course, that the majority of regular church going Protestants are evangelical, and therefore orthodox about the atonement--namely that Christ had to die to pay for our sins.

We don't need a pope to tell us what the Bible clearly says, and the church has always believed.

[wardaddy]

I'm getting tired of folks thinking Prods are somehow against this movie or that they have such a big beef with it since Mel is a Catholic traditionalist.

Here in Nashville, the only folks against it are the usual suspects including liberal Reform Jews, Unitarians, and the strata of psuedo-Christians....and not all of any of those groups.

Every mainline Prod group I know here from Church of Christ to Pres/Meth/Baptist to Assemblies of God all heartily endorse this film and are encouraging that view from the pulpit.

Anyone could see this popularity coming the second one heard that the same man who brought us Braveheart, Patriot and We Were Soldiers was bringing us a movie on Christ and better yet starring Caviziel as Christ....dang I knew right then this had strong legs.

The only Prods angry are the fringe and the liberal apostates(NCC) that the Media always trots out as "spokespeople".

[MegaSilver]

I don't know how to break this to you, but the Bible didn't 'come from traditions', it came from manuscripts.

I know what the source of the Bible is. But it was one of the Ecumenical Councils (I can't remember which one) that sorted through the manuscripts, prayed over them, scrutinized them, and figured out which ones would fit into canonical scripture.

For the record, I am not Catholic, and I probably never will be. But for all the concerns/disagreements I have with the Catholic Church, I caution Protestants against openly assaulting their Catholic brothers and sisters. We can resolve our differences if we agree to remain civil. We will remain divided as long as we lash out at each other.

Moreover, it is the height of presumption and arrogance to pretend a connection of the RCC of today (with its various 'traditional' doctrines) and the early church. Somehow, I just can't Peter climbing into his fishing boat in those pretty flowing robes with his pretty white mitre hat with the gold trim on his head. Nor can I see Paul swimming ashore from the shipwreck in his pretty red costume with the heavy gold cross pinned to it.

While I agree with the gist of what you're saying (that formality isn't everything), keep in mind that formality isn't necessarily BAD, either. Formality is only bad when it becomes a substitute (idol) for the substance.

I actually rather like the formalities of Catholic Masses. I do have concern that some people let the formalities get in the way of substance, but properly employed, they add an excellent dimension to worship.

[supercat]

No, original sin has nothing to do with sex. It is God telling Adam and Eve that everything is theirs BUT don't eat from that tree or you will surely die, and Satan saying, "Oh come on now, you're not gonna die!!!" and Adam and Eve listening to Satan and not God.

One thing I've wondered about, though: while Original Sin may have caused man's greatest downfall, wasn't it also necessary for his greatest triumphs, such as they are? If Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit, could they have done anything at all that mattered? One of the strongest drives of the human condition--what Stephen Schwartz called the "spark of creation"--is the need to do something that matters, whether in a good way or a bad way. And if it's impossible for people to do anything that matters in a good way, they're likely to do something bad. It's simply human nature.

BTW, Stephen Schwartz also penned the following great lyrics:

[Noah]
This son of mine I love so well, but oh the toll it takes.
I'd give to him a garden, and keep it clear of snakes.
But the one thing he most treasures is to make his own mistakes...

Again, a clear description of the human condition; while it may be preferable not to make mistakes, the story of the Prodigal Son makes clear God's acknowledgement that sometimes people just have to learn things the hard way.

[Just mythoughts]

WHAT??????

"Indeed, since God and Satan seem to have been battling over the human race since time immemorial, it would seem that if God were truly omnipotent and didn't want Satan to exist, He could simply make it so."

Ezekiel 28:12

"Son of man, take up a LAMENTATION upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, 'Thus' saith the Lord God;

'Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.'

13 Thou has been in Eden the garden of God;.........

14. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so; that wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15. Thou wast perfect in they ways from the day that thou was CREATED, till iniquity was found in thee.

16. By the multitude of the MERCHANDISE they have filled the mist of thee with violence, and thou has sinned:

therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mount of

of God: and I will DESTROY thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire......................

17. Thine pride was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:

I will cast thee to the earth, I will lay thee before kings,

that they may behold thee.

18. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of

thine iniquities, by the iniquity of the TRAFFICK'

therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,

it shall DEVOUR thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon

earth in the sight of all them that behold thee......


All in good time Satan got the DEATH sentence!

[cartoonistx]

Denying the death and resurection is to deny Christ. God's very reason for creation hinges upon the cross. These "religeous" students risk Hell! What has become of divinity schools in America?!