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To: GrandMoM
Gay marriage will destroy NOTHING~ these people were born this way, period! Grow up.
9 posted on 02/22/2004 5:06:46 PM PST by buffyt (We must never use the UN as a substitute for clear and resolute US policy. B. Goldwater)
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To: buffyt
Since we're being all grown up here, why don't homosexuals grow up and work the system by the rules. If you're so right, why not get the laws proposed, gather a groundswell from Americans and propose the constitutional amendment. Why is it the responsibility of hetero America to fight against your thinking? Why are you not strong enough to fight FOR it ? If your position is correct, it should be easy, right?
14 posted on 02/22/2004 5:16:21 PM PST by ProfoundMan (The owl flies far for a candy bar.)
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To: buffyt
And another thing... homosexuals have been pairing themselves outside of the laws and norms of societies for centuries. Why is it SO important NOW?
18 posted on 02/22/2004 5:24:49 PM PST by ProfoundMan (The owl flies far for a candy bar.)
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To: buffyt; EdReform
these people were born this way

The Innate-Immutable Argument Finds No Basis in Science In Their Own Words: Gay Activists Speak About Science, Morality, Philosophy

A. Dean Byrd, Ph.D.
Shirley E. Cox, Ph.D.
Jeffrey W. Robinson, Ph.D

. The following article was published in the Salt Lake City Tribune, in slightly abbreviated form, on May 27th, 2001. Lead author A. Dean Byrd, NARTH's Vice President, received many responses (mostly positive) to this intellectually provocative editorial.

The Salt Lake City Tribune has published several articles in recent months regarding homosexuality. While many of the articles are well-written, they do not reflect the scientific literature. In fact, the social advocacy of many of the articles seem to suggest a greater reliance on politics than on science.

Leaving aside the politics of the issue, perhaps it is time to examine the innate-immutable argument about homosexual attraction. First of all--although the issue is enormously complex and simply cannot be reduced to a matter of nature vs. nurture--the answer to that debate is probably "yes" --it is likely that homosexual attraction, like many other strong attractions, includes both biological and environmental influences.

What is clear, however, is that the scientific attempts to demonstrate that homosexual attraction is biologically determined have failed. The major researchers now prominent in the scientific arena--themselves gay activists--have in fact arrived at such conclusions.

Researcher Dean Hamer, for example, attempted to link male homosexuality to a stretch of DNA located at the tip of the X chromosome, the chromosome that some men inherit from their mothers. Referring to that research, Hamer offered some conclusions regarding genetics and homosexuality.

"We knew that genes were only part of the answer. We assumed the environment also played a role in sexual orientation, as it does in most, if not all behaviors.... Homosexuality is not purely genetic...environmental factors play a role. There is not a single master gene that makes people gay....I don't think we will ever be able to predict who will be gay."

Citing the failure of his research, Hamer further writes,
"The pedigree failed to produce what we originally hoped to find: simple Mendelian inheritance. In fact, we never found a single family in which homosexuality was distributed in the obvious pattern that Mendel observed in his pea plants." What's more interesting is that when Hamer's study was duplicated by Rice et al with research that was more robust, the genetic markers were found to be nonsignificant. Rice concluded.

"It is unclear why our results are so discrepant from Hamer's original study. Because our study was larger than that of Hamer's et al, we certainly had adequate power to detect a genetic effect as large as reported in that study. Nonetheless, our data do not support the presence of a gene of large effect influencing sexual orientation at position XQ 28."

Simon LeVay, in his study of the hypothalamic differences between the brains of homosexual and heterosexual men, offered the following criticisms of his own research:

"It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain.

"INAH3 is less likely to be the sole gay nucleus of the brain than part of a chain of nuclei engaged in men and women's sexual behavior...Since I looked at adult brains, we don't know if the difference I found were there at birth, or if they appeared later."

Indeed, in commenting on the brain and sexual behavior, Dr. Mark Breedlove, a researcher at the University of California at Berkeley, demonstrated that sexual behavior can actually change brain structure. Referring to his research, Breedlove states,

"These findings give us proof for what we theoretically know to be the case-that sexual experience can alter the structure of the brain, just as genes can alter it. [I]t is possible that differences in sexual behavior cause (rather than are caused) by differences in the brain."

....more can be found here"http://www.narth.com/docs/innate.html

I will pass on you insult!

19 posted on 02/22/2004 5:27:39 PM PST by GrandMoM (Get the most out of every day. Do your part, but do not try to do GOD"S part!!!)
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To: buffyt
There is AT MOST a 10-20% predisposition hormonally, and/or genetically toward homosexuality.

You might consider buying into the leftist propaganda less easily.
25 posted on 02/22/2004 5:36:04 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: buffyt
Care to tell the folks where AIDS came from?????
33 posted on 02/22/2004 5:46:33 PM PST by beckysueb (Lady Liberty is in danger! Bush/Cheney 04.)
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To: buffyt
Are you saying that thousands of years of male-female marriage is to be abandoned. What, in your great compassionate culture, will replace hetero marriage? Keep in mind during this time all cultures forbade "queers" legitimate marriage. Now, however, you and yours come along with your superior wisdom and are going to change all this. Do you really think that a nation can have a culture on the relationship of buggery?
36 posted on 02/22/2004 5:50:30 PM PST by Blake#1
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To: buffyt
Despite years of scientific studies, there is no evidence that homosexuals are born with that orientation. There are reasons both psychological and in their environment which may encourage people to develop that state, but they are not BORN that way.
37 posted on 02/22/2004 5:52:29 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: buffyt
Gay marriage will destroy NOTHING

My religion teaches that homosexual acts are wrong.....just as every major religion in the world does.

I don't want my tax dollars used by the public schools to teach my children the opposite of what their faith teaches.

Legalized gay marriage will enable just that.

41 posted on 02/22/2004 6:02:02 PM PST by Republic If You Can Keep It
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To: buffyt
From your profile...

"My husband and I both use the same login name to read and post on FR. It is easier than logging in and out all the time. "

So which of you is it? Either way, should produce some interesting conversation tonight.

"NPelosi/WeaselClark/ASharpton/HILLARY/GrayedOutDavis/GCondit/BFrank/NiceSuitsToricelli/DeeplySaddenedTDaschle/
AGorebot/DFeinstein/DGephart/JCueBallCarville/BentRapistClinton/Janet~JesseJackson/
TMcAullifeMcAwful/ScreamingHowardDean/SwimmingDriverTeddyKennedy/JOHaNoiJaneKerry/BBoxer = bunch of SICKOS!!!

How could someone who thinks that post what you posted? If you're just trying to stimulate conversation, it worked...

(I'd be more articulate if I had HTML skills)
44 posted on 02/22/2004 6:21:19 PM PST by ProfoundMan (The owl flies far for a candy bar.)
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To: buffyt
Gay marriage will destroy NOTHING~ these people were born this way, period! Grow up.

Even if this were true, which it most likely is not, it is still no argument for promoting this behavior as socially acceptable. People can be born schizophrenic, but we don't change our definition of society to suit them, do we?
45 posted on 02/22/2004 6:25:17 PM PST by fr_freak
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To: buffyt
Gay marriage will destroy NOTHING~ these people were born this way, period!

Well, I doubt many lesbians are born that way. I've heard some stories about 12th grade girls in a certain high school that strongly indicate to me that lesbianism can easily spread in a wave. It probably is the case that some boys are so strongly effeminate at such a young age that it is going to be difficult for them to identify as heterosexual. So you are right there. But this is not at all true with tomboys.

It probably is for the best that homosexuals, if they are not going to be celibate, get married in a Metropolitan Community Church or some such, whatever people might think of the theology in those places. They can do that today as in the 1970's. However, as shown in Stanley Kurtz's articles on the death of marriage in Scandanavia, once gay marriage is well-established in law, marriage gradually loses its allure for men of WHATEVER orientation. Now gay marriage is this exciting new thing and so has some attraction for gays, but once it is tamed by being the subject of pictures in first grade reading textbooks, it will lose all attraction for gays, and not sound too thrilling to anybody else.

The situation is serious because I don't think the marriage amendment as currently worded can pass. I hope the President tries to water it down to something easier to get through the state legislatures -- probably just allow for pure state-by-state marraige laws not honored reciprocally. Then we'll see which kind of states are best for children to grow up in.

53 posted on 02/22/2004 6:52:08 PM PST by Steve Eisenberg
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To: buffyt
Its time to stop discussing theory and look to the evidence. There is an article at the American Standard that is way to long to post, but it discusses the devastating impact that gay marriage has had where it has been adopted. The theories are all very good, but this is what really happens.. (link below)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From the article......AMERICANS take it for granted that, despite its recent troubles, marriage will always exist. This is a mistake. Marriage is disappearing in Scandinavia, and the forces undermining it there are active throughout the West. Perhaps the most disturbing sign for the future is the collapse of the Scandinavian tendency to marry after the second child. At the start of the nineties, 60 percent of unmarried Norwegian parents who lived together had only one child. By 2001, 56 percent of unmarried, cohabiting parents in Norway had two or more children. This suggests that someday, Scandinavian parents might simply stop getting married altogether, no matter how many children they have.



http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp?pg=2
55 posted on 02/22/2004 6:54:05 PM PST by gogipper (Judgement at Nuerenburg ...... Judgement at Baghdad)
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To: buffyt
Gay marriage will destroy NOTHING~ these people were born this way, period!

I'd ask you to support that statement but you cannot. If you want an education on the subject, check this out.

Have you ever completely changed your mind on a hot political issue? Dr. Spitzer changed his mind on whether homosexuals can leave the lifestyle:

"I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted--but that no one could really change their sexual orientation. I now believe that's untrue--some people can and do change." Spitzer completely changed his mind whether or not some homosexuals can change. And then Spitzer concluded with:

"the mental health professionals should stop moving in the direction of banning therapy that has, as a goal, a change in sexual orientation. Many patients, provided with informed consent about the possibility that they will be disappointed if the therapy does not succeed, can make a rational choice to work toward developing their heterosexual potential and minimizing their unwanted homosexual attractions."

Source: Spitzer made the above comments at an annual APA meeting, May 9, 2001. The study was reported in the May 9, 2001 issues of The Washington Post, The New York Times, USA Today and it was also released to many local newspapers via the AP. ABC, CBS, FOX and MSNBC all reported the study.

Spitzer went from believing homosexuals can't change to where they can, and then he goes so far as to say mental health professions shouldn't ban the very therapy resulting in that change.

Who is Spitzer? In 1973 he played a pivotal role in the APAs decision to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder. A decision based on homosexual activism, not science.

74 posted on 02/22/2004 8:39:44 PM PST by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: buffyt
Prove it.
105 posted on 02/23/2004 7:48:48 AM PST by redangus
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