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Teresa Heinz Kerry Funded Group Calls For Censure Of Bush
Win Without Wars ^ | February 15, 2004

Posted on 02/16/2004 2:45:25 PM PST by Hon

Win Without War
 

Censure the President!

 

As revelations each day make clear that President Bush and his advisers deliberately misled Americans on the reasons for invading Iraq, a coalition of organizations and individuals -- including a former CIA analyst, an anti-terrorism diplomat and military families -- call on Congress to censure the President.

“This is not about a failure of intelligence. It’s a failure of integrity,” said Tom Andrews, national director of Win Without War, a coalition of 42 national membership organizations.

“Each day new evidenced dribbles out that the President knew. He knew the evidence wasn’t sufficient to support his claims that Iraq posed an ‘imminent threat’ to the American people,” said Andrews, a former member of Congress from Maine.

“He knew that the intelligence community’s assessment of Iraq’s arms programs did not support the administration’s pre-conceived notion that Iraq had chemical and nuclear weapons. He knew better -- but he chose to mislead us,” Andrews added. It is up to Congress to address this significant abuse of power by the Bush Administration, he said.

Adam Ruben, field director for the grassroots organization MoveOn.org, said it has collected more than 450,000 signatures in a week urging Congress to begin a process leading to censure. He said the organization would use print and TV advertising and its two million members to extend the campaign.

“There should be consequences when the President of the United States misleads the people and the Congress,” said Ruben. “Congress devoted considerable attention and, eventually, voted to impeach President Clinton for misleading the public about a sexual relationship. It isn’t unreasonable to think that misleading the nation about the necessity of going to war constitutes an abuse of power of much greater significance,” he said.

“The President has created the worst intelligence scandal in history, falsely creating a case to go to war when no national interests were at stake” said Mel Goodman, who served at both the CIA and the State Department under Republican and Democratic administrations.

“The reasons we were given for going to war were false. The Bush Administration engaged in a deliberate campaign of information warfare, which employed erroneous and misleading information as part of a broader strategy to build public opinion for an invasion,” added Larry Johnson, who served as Deputy Director of the State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism and, earlier, for the CIA.

The parents of two soldiers who were casualties of the war in Iraq demanded accountability.

“I want to know there was a good reason for what happened to my daughter and to all of the others injured and killed in Iraq,” said Adele Kubein of Corvalis, OR, whose daughter was injured by a mortar round while serving with her National Guard unit.

Also appearing was Fernando Suarez del Solar of San Diego, whose son, a Marine, was killed in combat. “It’s very difficult to accept the reality that my son died in a war that was not at all necessary,” he said.

MoveOn.org will encourage its members to communicate with Members of Congress in the coming weeks, Ruben said, and will assist in publicizing new evidence of the Administration’s deceptive behavior. “This is only the beginning,” he said.

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TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2004; fundingtheleft; kerry; radicalleft; sayhi2mojo; teresaheinz; tidesfoundation
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To: Wally_Kalbacken
Another image paid for by Teresa "Hanoi" Heinz Kerry:


21 posted on 02/16/2004 3:15:47 PM PST by Hon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: xsmommy
Hanoi Heniz ping.
22 posted on 02/16/2004 3:19:55 PM PST by NeoCaveman (No one listens to techno no more.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: spacewarp
No one dares to mention it but a huge percentage of the world oil supply lies in the neighborhood of Iraq, Iran Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. NOt a good area to turn over to a saddam Hussein. Thanks God Bush and Blair did what they did in Iraq. Can you imagine gas lines around the world. I know the lib-dems wouldn't care, they could ride their bicycles but the rest of the world would be in caos.
23 posted on 02/16/2004 3:22:04 PM PST by rodguy911
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Hon; Registered
Judging by that pitiful effort, they don't have anybody like our Registered on staff...
24 posted on 02/16/2004 3:25:46 PM PST by ErnBatavia (Some days you're the windshield; some days you're the bug)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Hon
AND TO ALL FREEPERS: Here's a way that we all can fight back...... This CONSERVATIVE ALERT is a special message from RightMarch.com ISSUE: Radical left-wing groups are stepping up their partisan attacks on President Bush in anticipation of this fall's elections. Now, they're pushing their strongest attack yet: They are calling on Congress to CENSURE the President of the United States. This is the next step before a call for impeachment! What are their reasons? They're claiming that Pres. Bush "misled the American people and the Congress" just to get us into war with Iraq. But the fact is, as the Washington Times reported, Iraq possessed stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons; it was reconstituting its nuclear-bomb research; it was producing missiles beyond the range allowed by UN resolutions and it's research continued into chemical and biological agents. President Bush was RIGHT. And Pres. Bush and Republicans in Congress weren't the only ones who believed the undisputable evidence regarding Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and the need to get Saddam Hussein out. Take a look: "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Dec. 16, 1998 "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA), Sept. 27, 2002 "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members." -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY), Oct 10, 2002 "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D-MA), Jan. 23. 2003 MoveOn.org is pressing FULL STEAM AHEAD by getting hundreds of thousands of their members to contact Congress demanding that the President be censured. They're also taking out a full-page ad in the Washington Post, telling Congress that "he knew" that "Iraq posed no imminent danger to the United States." Saddam Hussein WAS a threat. Republicans AND Democrats knew it, and now reports are showing they were right. We've got to show Congress that these radical liberals are WRONG, and put a STOP to the efforts to censure our President -- which will ultimately do nothing more than demoralize our troops that are already facing deadly hardships in Iraq. ACTION ITEM: MoveOn.org has millions of dollars from liberals like billionaire George Soros, enabling them to take out their full-page ad attacking the President. Well, we've got hard-working, patriotic grassroots Americans all across this country who are willing to FIGHT BACK against these attacks -- so we need your help NOW to take out our OWN full-page ads in Washington, DC newspapers, telling Congress to IGNORE the radical partisan efforts of groups like MoveOn.org. Full page ads in Washington, DC aren't cheap. But folks like YOU have helped us take ads out nationwide before and we've visibly shaken the liberals up with those ads. LET'S DO IT AGAIN! Please take two minutes to do just do things to help out... FIRST: Please go to our site below NOW to help us with your best contribution towards this effort. If every one reading this gave just $50, we could put those full-page ads up *this week*. But we know that many of our patriotic readers just can't afford to give that much -- so some of you might be able to give more to make up for them, maybe as much as $100, $500, or even $1,000. But whatever you can give -- even if it's only $10 --we'll make YOUR support for the President known right there -- in black and white -- in full-page ads, in the heart of our nation's capital. Go to the site below to help us pay for these FULL PAGE ads in Washington, DC newspapers: https://www.campaigncontribution.com/contribution.asp?id=2370&jid=rightmarch-censurealerts&sid=1 AOL GO HERE NEXT: MoveOn.org claims that over 300,000 people have signed their petition to Congress, demanding the censure of President Bush. We need to contact our Congressmen NOW, and let them know that those signatures are NOT representative of the vast "silent majority" of mainstream Americans; so we've set up a webpage where you can send an editable, pre-written letter quickly and easily to your legislators right away. Please go to our site below NOW to send a message to your Representative and both of your Senators for FREE: http://www.conservativealerts.com/021004.htm a ref="http://www.conservativealerts.com/021004.htm"> AOL GO HERE FINALLY: If we're going to be successful in this effort to counter the billionaire-funded juggernaut of the radical leftists at MoveOn.org, we MUST get the word out to HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of our fellow right-thinking Americans. PLEASE forward this Alert to *everyone* you know, before you do anything else. WE CAN DEFEAT THEM, with your help. We'll keep you informed on the progress. Thank you! -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
25 posted on 02/16/2004 3:26:03 PM PST by danamco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: danamco
You might want to ask the mods to delete that and try it again with formatting.
26 posted on 02/16/2004 3:27:52 PM PST by Hon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: danamco
Plus: Flood the Heinz company that we will boy-cut all their products - and DO it!!!
27 posted on 02/16/2004 3:29:49 PM PST by danamco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Hon
Sorry, I'm fairly new here, how do you do that?
28 posted on 02/16/2004 3:31:19 PM PST by danamco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: TheSpottedOwl
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged" - Abraham Lincoln
29 posted on 02/16/2004 3:32:26 PM PST by Republicus2001
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: danamco
Above the Reply box you will see this:

Your Reply: (HTML auto-detected, see help for more information)

Hopefully that will be able to guide you.
30 posted on 02/16/2004 3:38:00 PM PST by Hon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Republicus2001
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged" - Abraham Lincoln

Kerry's made a career of it.
31 posted on 02/16/2004 3:38:49 PM PST by Hon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Republicus2001
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged" - Abraham Lincoln

The good old days. Jane Fonda set the standard, unfortunately. She was deliberately undermining our troops, and got off scot-free.

32 posted on 02/16/2004 3:47:42 PM PST by TheSpottedOwl (Until Kofi Annan rides the Jerusalem RTD....nothing will change.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Cobra64
Claussen pickles. Expensive, but well worth it. Please don't tell me that Heinz owns that company.
33 posted on 02/16/2004 3:50:04 PM PST by TheSpottedOwl (Until Kofi Annan rides the Jerusalem RTD....nothing will change.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Hon
>
> Who keeps their promises ???
>
>
> You know, it is easy to forget the 'promises' that Bill and Hillary made
while in office. It strikes home when it is listed like this:
>
> After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured
1000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and punished.
>
> BUSH COVERED IT!
>
> After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and
punished.
>
> BUSH COVERED IT!
>
> After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and
injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible
would be hunted down and punished.
>
> BUSH COVERED IT!
>
> After the 1998 bombing of U.S embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and
injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible! would be hunted down
and punished.
>
> BUSH COVERED IT!
>
> After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39
U.S. sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and punished.
>
> BUSH COVERED IT!
>
> Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 3,000 people in New
York and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be alive today.
>
> BUSH TOLD THOSE FIREMAN -- THEY WOULD HEAR US TOO!
>
> And, now that Bush is taking action to bring these people to justice, we
have Democrats charging him with being a war monger...
>
> AN INTERESTING QUESTION:This question was raised on a Philly radio call-in
show. Without casting stones, it is a legitimate question. there are two
men, both extremely wealthy. One develops relatively cheap software and
gives billions of dollars to charity. The other sponsors terrorism. That
being the case, why was it that the Clinton administration spent more money
chasing down Bill Gates over eight years rather than stopping Osama bin
Laden?
>
> THINK ABOUT IT!
>
> It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8 Million for her
forthcoming memoir. Bill gets about $12 Million for his memoir yet to be
written. This from two people who have spent 8 years being unable to recall
anything about past events while under oath!
>
> And the Democrats want to take back the White House -- what a joke !!!
34 posted on 02/16/2004 3:53:10 PM PST by danamco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Burkeman1
B-man - a thread like this one has your name written all over it:
As revelations each day make clear that President Bush and his advisers deliberately misled Americans on the reasons for invading Iraq

35 posted on 02/16/2004 3:55:15 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann C. and Rush L. speak on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Hon
“The reasons we were given for going to war were false. The Bush Administration engaged in a deliberate campaign of information warfare, which employed erroneous and misleading information as part of a broader strategy to build public opinion for an invasion,” added Larry Johnson, who served as Deputy Director of the State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism and, earlier, for the CIA.

Larry Johnson is a joke and a hypocrit. Just a few months prior to 9-11, this idiot wrote an op ed for the New York Times in which he ridiculed the threat of terrorism and said more Americans die of scorpion bites and that terrorist pose no threat. Talk about misleading the public. What a joke....

36 posted on 02/16/2004 3:59:24 PM PST by Always Right
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: danamco
Lord have mercy on my eyes!

AND TO ALL FREEPERS: Here's a way that we all can fight back...... This CONSERVATIVE ALERT is a special message from RightMarch.com ISSUE:

Radical left-wing groups are stepping up their partisan attacks on President Bush in anticipation of this fall's elections. Now, they're pushing their strongest attack yet: They are calling on Congress to CENSURE the President of the United States. This is the next step before a call for impeachment!

What are their reasons? They're claiming that Pres. Bush "misled the American people and the Congress" just to get us into war with Iraq. But the fact is, as the Washington Times reported, Iraq possessed stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons; it was reconstituting its nuclear-bomb research; it was producing missiles beyond the range allowed by UN resolutions and it's research continued into chemical and biological agents.

President Bush was RIGHT. And Pres. Bush and Republicans in Congress weren't the only ones who believed the undisputable evidence regarding Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and the need to get Saddam Hussein out. Take a look:

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Dec. 16, 1998 "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA), Sept. 27, 2002 "

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members." -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY), Oct 10, 2002 "

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D-MA)

MoveOn.org is pressing FULL STEAM AHEAD by getting hundreds of thousands of their members to contact Congress demanding that the President be censured. They're also taking out a full-page ad in the Washington Post, telling Congress that "he knew" that "Iraq posed no imminent danger to the United States." Saddam Hussein WAS a threat. Republicans AND Democrats knew it, and now reports are showing they were right.

We've got to show Congress that these radical liberals are WRONG, and put a STOP to the efforts to censure our President -- which will ultimately do nothing more than demoralize our troops that are already facing deadly hardships in Iraq. ACTION ITEM: MoveOn.org has millions of dollars from liberals like billionaire George Soros, enabling them to take out their full-page ad attacking the President. Well, we've got hard-working, patriotic grassroots Americans all across this country who are willing to FIGHT BACK against these attacks -- so we need your help NOW to take out our OWN full-page ads in Washington, DC newspapers, telling Congress to IGNORE the radical partisan efforts of groups like MoveOn.org.

But folks like YOU have helped us take ads out nationwide before and we've visibly shaken the liberals up with those ads. LET'S DO IT AGAIN! Please take two minutes to do just do things to help out... FIRST: Please go to our site below NOW to help us with your best contribution towards this effort. If every one reading this gave just $50, we could put those full-page ads up *this week*. But we know that many of our patriotic readers just can't afford to give that much -- so some of you might be able to give more to make up for them, maybe as much as $100, $500, or even $1,000. But whatever you can give -- even if it's only $10 --we'll make YOUR support for the President known right there -- in black and white -- in full-page ads, in the heart of our nation's capital. Go to the site below to help us pay for these FULL PAGE ads in Washington, DC newspapers:

id=2370&jid=rightmarch-censurealerts&sid=1 AOL GO HERE NEXT: MoveOn.org claims that over 300,000 people have signed their petition to Congress, demanding the censure of President Bush. We need to contact our Congressmen NOW, and let them know that those signatures are NOT representative of the vast "silent majority" of mainstream Americans; so we've set up a webpage where you can send an editable, pre-written letter quickly and easily to your legislators right away. Please go to our site below NOW to send a message to your Representative and both of your Senators for FREE: http://www.conservativealerts.com/021004.htm a ref="http://www.conservativealerts.com/021004.htm"> AOL GO HERE

FINALLY: If we're going to be successful in this effort to counter the billionaire-funded juggernaut of the radical leftists at MoveOn.org, we MUST get the word out to HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of our fellow right-thinking Americans. PLEASE forward this Alert to *everyone* you know, before you do anything else. WE CAN DEFEAT THEM, with your help. We'll keep you informed on the progress. Thank you! --

37 posted on 02/16/2004 3:59:44 PM PST by TheSpottedOwl (Until Kofi Annan rides the Jerusalem RTD....nothing will change.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Always Right
Right you are:

July 10, 2001

The Declining Terrorist Threat

By LARRY C. JOHNSON

WASHINGTON -- Judging from news reports and the portrayal of villains in our popular entertainment, Americans are bedeviled by fantasies about terrorism. They seem to believe that terrorism is the greatest threat to the United States and that it is becoming more widespread and lethal. They are likely to think that the United States is the most popular target of terrorists. And they almost certainly have the impression that extremist Islamic groups cause most terrorism.

None of these beliefs are based in fact. While many crimes are committed against Americans abroad (as at home), politically inspired terrorism, as opposed to more ordinary criminality motivated by simple greed, is not as common as most people may think.

At first glance, things do seem to be getting worse. International terrorist incidents, as reported by the State Department, increased to 423 in 2000 from 392 in 1999. Recently, Americans were shaken by Filipino rebels' kidnapping of Americans and the possible beheading of one hostage. But the overall terrorist trend is down. According to the Central Intelligence Agency, deaths from international terrorism fell to 2,527 in the decade of the 1990's, from 4,833 in the 80's.

Nor are the United States and its policies the primary target. Terrorist activity in 2000 was heavily concentrated in just two countries — Colombia, which had 186 incidents, and India, with 63. The cause was these countries' own political conflicts.

While 82 percent of the attacks in Colombia were on oil pipelines managed by American and British companies, these attacks were less about terrorism than about guerrillas' goal of disrupting oil production to undermine the Colombian economy. Generally, the guerrillas shy away from causing casualties in these attacks. No American oil workers in Colombia were killed or injured last year.

Other terrorism against American interests is rare. There were three attacks on American diplomatic buildings in 2000, compared with 42 in 1988. No Americans were killed in these incidents, nor have there been any deaths in this sort of attack this year.

Of the 423 international terrorist incidents documented in the State Department's report "Patterns of Global Terrorism 2000," released in April, only 153 were judged by the department and the C.I.A. to be "significant." And only 17 of these involved American citizens or businesses.

Eleven incidents involved kidnappings of one or more American citizens, all of whom were eventually released. Seven of those kidnapped worked for American companies in the energy business or providing services to it — Halliburton, Shell, Chevron, Mobil, Noble Drilling and Erickson Air-Crane.

Five bombings were on the list. The best known killed 17 American sailors on the destroyer Cole, as it was anchored in a Yemeni port, and wounded 39. A bomb at a McDonald's in France killed a local citizen there. The other explosions — outside the United States embassy in the Philippines, at a Citibank office in Greece, and in the offices of Newmont Mining in Indonesia — caused mostly property damage and no loss of life. In the 17th incident, vandals trashed a McDonald's in South Africa.

The greatest risk is clear: if you are drilling for oil in Colombia — or in nations like Ecuador, Nigeria or Indonesia — you should take appropriate precautions; otherwise Americans have little to fear.

Although high-profile incidents have fostered the perception that terrorism is becoming more lethal, the numbers say otherwise, and early signs suggest that the decade beginning in 2000 will continue the downward trend. A major reason for the decline is the current reluctance of countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya, which once eagerly backed terrorist groups, to provide safe havens, funding and training.

The most violent and least reported source of international terrorism is the undeclared war between Islamists and Hindus over the disputed Kashmir region of India, bordering Pakistan. Although India came in second in terms of the number of terrorist incidents in 2000, with 63, it accounted for almost 50 percent of all resulting deaths, with 187 killed, and injuries, with 337 hurt. Most of the blame lies with radical groups trained in Afghanistan and operating from Pakistan.

I am not soft on terrorism; I believe strongly in remaining prepared to confront it. However, when the threat of terrorism is used to justify everything from building a missile defense to violating constitutional rights (as in the case of some Arab-Americans imprisoned without charge), it is time to take a deep breath and reflect on why we are so fearful.

Part of the blame can be assigned to 24-hour broadcast news operations too eager to find a dramatic story line in the events of the day and to pundits who repeat myths while ignoring clear empirical data. Politicians of both parties are also guilty. They warn constituents of dire threats and then appropriate money for redundant military installations and new government investigators and agents.

Finally, there are bureaucracies in the military and in intelligence agencies that are desperate to find an enemy to justify budget growth. In the 1980's, when international terrorism was at its zenith, NATO and the United States European Command pooh-poohed the notion of preparing to fight terrorists. They were too busy preparing to fight the Soviets. With the evil empire gone, they "discovered" terrorism as an important priority.

I hope for a world where facts, not fiction, determine our policy. While terrorism is not vanquished, in a world where thousands of nuclear warheads are still aimed across the continents, terrorism is not the biggest security challenge confronting the United States, and it should not be portrayed that way.

Larry C. Johnson is a former State Department counterterrorism specialist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/10/opinion/10JOHN.html?ex=1077080400&en=2af3f0703ef0d48a&ei=5070

Yep. He sure knows what he is talking about!
38 posted on 02/16/2004 4:13:14 PM PST by Hon
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To: danamco
Sorry, I'm fairly new here, how do you do that?

To keep it simple, just stick <p> (that's a less than symbol, followed by the letter p, followed by a greater than symbol) whenever you want to start a new paragraph. That'll get you started. For more, go visit the HTML sandbox.

39 posted on 02/16/2004 6:11:21 PM PST by upchuck (Ta-ray-za now gets to execute her "maiming of choice." I'm hoping for eye gouging, how 'bout you?)
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