'That's what it's come to . . . We see children who are adult oriented as being aberrant'

The Globe and Mail ^ | Saturday, January 31, 2004 | ALANNA MITCHELL

[spodefly]

Since you are from Canada, I have to ask: Do you listen to Rush? (the band, not the talk show host)

If not, you need to go get all their albums right now, because any kid that grows up NOT listening to Rush, will be a wacko.

[AntiKev]

The only Rush song I've heard is YYZ. Interesting side note, the cymbal intro to that song is the morse-code identifier heard on the Toronto (CYYZ) VHF Omni-Range Beacon (VOR). :D

[fightu4it]

"According to Dr. Neufeld, teens who are peer-oriented dress alike and reject contact with adults." "Their obsession with their friends and acquaintances supplants any real interest in adults to the point that they are emotionally detached even from their parents."

Like this is something new? Not!

[spodefly]

You sound somewhat like a 17 year old spodefly (which should scare the hell out of you, by the way.) I was a pilot at 17, and didn't fit into any of the cliques in school, although strangely enough, I was an accepted member of most all of them.

Re: Rush & YYZ, I did know about the morse identifier for YYZ. I learned morse code when I was a teenager to get my novice amatuer radio license. My dad was in the Army Security Agency (329CRC) during Korea working with SigInt, traffic analysis, etc. He, to this day, can read morse at incredible speed, even after staying away from it for 30 years or so. When I was practicing for my General Amatuer ticket around 10 years ago, I had a computer program that would play back morse at varying speeds. I was practicing trying to get up to 12wpm. He heard the morse at the fastest speed the computer would play it back, maybe 22 wpm, and didn't miss a letter.

Anyway, you owe it to yourself as a Canadian and as a unique youngster, to check more into Rush. They are among the best bands ever in rock music, and as far as I am concerned, Canada's finest export ... :)

[Sloth]

My friend is typical of today's teens. I am not. He follows the crowd, but says he doesn't. He dresses, acts, and all around is like them. I have bigger plans.

Good for you. There was a Ziggy cartoon years ago... Ziggy is in a crowd of people all walking one direction, and he is walking the other way, saying "I wish I was a non-conformist like everybody else."

People like your friend like to think they are rebelling or expressing their individuality -- or something along those lines -- when, in fact, they are the most unimaginative, conventional, unoriginal, sheep-like people in the world, ruled only by their fear of what other people will think of them.

[RosieCotton]

Hey, people are actually starting to notice this?

And yet...these are more than likely the same people who are spooked by homeschooled kids actually TALKING to adults, and even preferring their company to that of "peers" who resemble the teens in this story - THEY are the kids who TRULY socially disturbed, don't ya know.

[AntiKev]

Thanks for the encouraging words everyone.

[Jaysun]

And the evidence for this is? Except in terms of fashion, I disagree. Kids are pretty much the same as they always were. Wally Cleaver was a fictional character not a realistic depiction of how teenagers used to behave.

Note the chart's 1960 data point and the trend thereafter. With this in mind, think of this: "Since 1962, when teachers were first allowed to unionize, the public school system has been a system that benefits and answers to the producers of education, not to the consumers. 88% of America's schools are government schools, and 75% of the teachers are union members." John Fund, Editorial Board Wall Street Journal, May 1998 Imprimis volume 27, #5.

"More than 40% of American 10-year-olds cannot pass a basic reading test (although still they are 'socially' promoted), and as many as 42 million adults are functionally illiterate. 'The Economist' (January 22, 1999, pg. 55).

The Third International Math & Science series showed that U.S. 12th graders scored behind every nation, except Cyprus and South Africa? Even comparing our elite to the elite students of other nations, Americans were near the bottom. In Physics we were at the very bottom. Or, the December 2000 report that our 8th graders scored behind 27 other nations, again. International Math & Science Test.

How about grammar school? Were you surprised in April 2001 with this: 'Two-thirds of U.S. fourth graders read below grade level and the weakest ones are falling further behind', according to the U.S. Education Department's reading ''Report Card'' released on 6 April 2001. Students reading at a proficient or advanced level from private schools performed 57% better than public schools.

The April 2001 OECD report stated "60% of Americans aged 16-25 are 'functionally illiterate', meaning that when it came to, say, filling in a form they were stumped - - and that on the simple numerical (reading a timetable, etc.) test they scored at the bottom of all industrial nations." - The Economist, 14 July 2001, pg. 84

``The quality of schooling is far worse today than it was in 1955,'' according to Milton Friedman, the Nobel laureate wrote in the Washington Post last year.

Someone really is after us... The NEA and its affiliates have been singled out because of our political power and effectiveness at all levels -- because we have the ability to help implement the type of liberal social and economic agenda that they find unacceptable."
--Robert H. Chanin, National Education Association general counsel (currently)

"The schools cannot allow parents to influence the kind of values-education their children receive in school; that is what is wrong with those who say there is a universal system of values. Our (humanistic) goals are incompatible with theirs. We must change their values."
--Paul Haubner, specialist for the N.E.A.

Since 1960, the U.S. population has increased 41%; the gross domestic product has nearly tripled; and total social spending by all levels of government (measured in constant 1990 dollars) has risen from $143.73 billion to $787 billion--more than a fivefold increase. Inflation-adjusted spending on welfare has increased by 630%, spending on education by 225%.
But during the same 30-year period there has been a 560% increase in violent crime, a 419% increase in illegitimate births; a quadrupling in divorce rates; a tripling of the percentage of children living in single-parent homes; more than a 200% increase in the teenage suicide rate; and a drop of almost 80 points in SAT scores.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/usadecline.html#table

I'd say that these kids are indeed a bit different.

[garbanzo]

Ah...changing the topic - this was about youth behavior - specifically the notion that American youth have gone feral which is unevidenced. I'll agree with you that it's perfectly obvious that American youth are poorly educated but that wasn't the subject.

[3catsanadog]

For thousands and thousands of years, the human has raised their children and no big deal. Kids were born, grew up and finally left the nest.

Ever since Dr. Spock, every Tom, Dick and Harry claims to be an expert on raising kids and we are hit from all directions by contradictory advice.

It's time for parents to burn the books and magazines, talk to their own parents about raising kids and listen to their own guts.

[Jaysun]

Ah...changing the topic - this was about youth behavior - specifically the notion that American youth have gone feral which is unevidenced. I'll agree with you that it's perfectly obvious that American youth are poorly educated but that wasn't the subject.

What? I didn't change the subject. The educational references were shown along with NEA information and crime statistics. Furthermore, it wasn't JUST about youth behavior. I said that, "They haven't been on an improvement trend in a host of areas." in post 15. I said that because you made the comment that, "Except in terms of fashion, I disagree. Kids are pretty much the same as they always were. Wally Cleaver was a fictional character not a realistic depiction of how teenagers used to behave." Nevertheless, the following previous examples are what I'd consider reasonable evidence that their behavior has become significantly worse:

*During 1999, students were victims of about 2.5 million crimes at school, 1.6 million thefts, and 880,000 nonfatal violent crimes, including about 186,000 serious violent crimes (rape, sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault). In comparison, students were victims of 2.1 million crimes away from school: 1 million thefts and 1.1 million nonfatal violent crimes, including 476,000 serious violent crimes.

*Over the 1995-1999 period, teachers were the victims of 1,708,000 nonfatal crimes at school, including 1,073,000 thefts and 635,000 violent crimes. On a per teacher basis, this translates to 79 crimes per 1,000 teachers annually.

*But during the same 30-year period there has been a 560% increase in violent crime, a 419% increase in illegitimate births

*more than a 200% increase in the teenage suicide rate

Were there school shootings, rampant pregnancies and illegitimate births, widespread illiteracy, or violence against teachers back when you went to school? There wasn't when I was in school. It's changed. For the worse. I don't know why you're so insistent on denying what is so obvious. I'm doing my best to answer your questions. If this still doesn't satisfy you let me know.

[independentmind]

In fact, they despise grownups and often shun them. They have no stake in pleasing them any more because their emotional compass has switched from their parents to their friends. They're almost impossible to nurture or teach.

And here we have the real problem with today's schools.

[independentmind]

Thanks for posting this article. Bookmarked.

[Bottom_Gun]

It's time for parents to burn the books and magazines, talk to their own parents about raising kids and listen to their own guts.

I agree wth you there...now with an 8yr old son, and a 2yr old daughter, I've been finding myself to more like my dad. Which when I was younger...I thought was a bad thing *L* god bless him

[garbanzo]

Were there school shootings, rampant pregnancies and illegitimate births, widespread illiteracy, or violence against teachers back when you went to school?

Depends on the time frame, I went to school in the 80s. Teenage pregnancy was not uncommon in the 1950s - you just didn't hear about it as much. And as for violence - the stat you cite is only reporting victims of crime. There is no word on how many perps. To give an example if one kid commits 100 crimes a year against 100 students, it shows up as 100 crimes, not one hundred criminals.

While it's an article of faith among people that things are just getting worse and worse, it really isn't born out by much reasonable evidence. What I'm responding to is the notion not that there are no social concerns, but rather that somehow or another today's teens are vastly more violent and out of control than compared to historical norms, as you suggested by implying that today's teens will steal anything that isn't bolted down.

[FITZ]

Depends on the time frame, I went to school in the 80s. Teenage pregnancy was not uncommon in the 1950s - you just didn't hear about it as much.

It wasn't as common --- but a couple of generations ago kids expected to be married at age 18 to 21. As a society, we've probably delayed the age of marriage far beyond what biology would have it as.

[garbanzo]

It wasn't as common --- but a couple of generations ago kids expected to be married at age 18 to 21.

Well a lot of these marriages were, shall we say, uh...rushed, which I think is a big change from that era to this, the expectation that knocking a woman up meant you had to marry her.

[Tijeras_Slim]

I achieved both my Glider Pilot and Private Pilot licenses.

This is an important point. You have achieved a position of trust and responsibility that can only be obtained by following rules and procedures set by adults. It was important enough to you to gain the respect of these adults to gain skills and follow rules. Just "wanting" this is not enough. Therefore, you have come to realize the value of earning the respect of adults, whereas many of your contemporaries (I won't say peers) probably think respect should be given to them.

For me it was shooting. I wanted to shoot, and be trusted with firearms. To do this I had to demonstrate to adults that I could be trusted with them. It was vitally important to me as a boy to gain entry into the "grown up" world. I could have cared less what my "peers" thought.

[FITZ]

Yes --- my grandfather told me that's the way it was when he grew up --- "biology" has always happened but in the past men were raised to be responsible and stay and help raise their children, marrying when a baby was on the way was common and those marriages lasted.

[I_dmc]

That caught my attention also. I've been completely baffled at my 16 yr old son's behaviors, especially school related. This article presents some ideas I hadn't considered that deserve much thought.