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Need pointed excerpts from Koran, Hadith, Sharia
24-JAN-04 | KingProut

Posted on 01/24/2004 7:39:16 AM PST by King Prout

I'm in the middle of an argument with some friends who, though intelligent and well educated, have an unfortunate tendency to equivocate and play moral relativism games.

I have stated that Islam is inherently incompatable with secular government, especially a constitutional republic such as ours.

I have stated that the Koran, Hadith, and Sharia contain within them a great many explicit and inarguable commandments to ill-treat members of other creeds, women, and apostates from Islam.

I have stated that Islam is by its very nature a blueprint and commandment for the creation (by force and subversion) of Islamic theocratic governments, said blueprint having the stamp of Mohammedian authority and the explicitly stated blessing of Allah.

Having read the Koran - once, some time ago- I am nearly certain I am correct. What few scraps of the Hadith and Sharia I have read have done nothing but reinforce my belief in Islam's incurable incompatability with western traditions of government, civil rights, and statehood.

I am, however, not able to prove this to my opponents in debate - I am not by any means a Korannic (or Biblical) scholar, and I lack textual citations of Koran, Hadith, and Sharia. This lack has so far allowed them to dodgefully equate Christianity with Islam, to dodge the problems embedded in Islam as regards the possibility of social harmony and secular government, and deny that Islam calls all members of the Ummah to invade, subvert, and eventually overthrow all non-Islam-based governments in order to impose Sharia and theocracy.

I request your assistance.

I need the following:

1. an html/web-based english translation of the Koran and Hadiths. If that is not available, a Word document translation will serve, if not as well.
2. a list of Korannic and Hadith citations relating to the topics under discussion
3. a list of weblinks/URLs to any Sharia sources (of repute: like the Egyptian sharia authorities, for example, or that of the Saudis)
4. Anything else you believe would be of assistance.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: islam; islamicism; jihad; koran; religionofpeace; rop; sharia; theocracy; ummah; wahhabi
I wish to end this debate with one huge, crushingly massive, overwhelmingly informative post. An immense anvil.

These people, and all others like them who ostrich-like hide in the sands of relativism from unpleasant facts about Islam, need a massive info-dump boot-to-the-head. The West needs to wake the hell up, and I am trying to do my part in making that happen.

I need your help.

1 posted on 01/24/2004 7:39:16 AM PST by King Prout
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To: King Prout
The problem with the Koran, et. al., is that even in the original Arabic it's pretty confusing and obscure and different from modern Arabic usage, and things get even worse in translation to English. (Example: many scholars believe that when it says "virgins" it actually means "dates" as in the fruit.)

It's pretty easy to take stuff out of context, or pick and choose what you want to use and ignore other aspects, out of any really long religious text if your purpose is to bash that particular religion.

IMHO if you look specifically for what you want to find in the Koran you'll find it. And someone defending Islam will find what they want to find too.

Frankly there's stuff taken in the Old Testament that sound pretty bad taken out of context, but I've found most Christians pick and choose what to believe and what to ignore in the Old Testament.
2 posted on 01/24/2004 7:44:59 AM PST by John H K
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To: John H K
Yes, which is why I want the Hadith and Sharia references.
One can get a clear understanding of a confusing creed by seeing how it is applied in real-time in the real world by its real believers.
3 posted on 01/24/2004 7:47:55 AM PST by King Prout ("Islam" is to "Peace" as a Zen Koan is to a binary logical "if-then" statement)
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To: King Prout
My suggestion to you would be to read the Koran, especially the last quarter or so, and get a feel for it yourself.

Mistranslations and out of context statements aside, it's clear that Islam is no religion of peace, unless that peace is one of subjegation of society by rich males. Even outside of society, there can be no true peace, only cease fires. Interesting stuff, but pretty obviously the contrived writings of a man who cares for power and control.

4 posted on 01/24/2004 7:49:38 AM PST by Steel Wolf ("Inveniemus viam aut faciemus" - We will either find a way or make one.)
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To: Steel Wolf
Agreed. In advance. See my tagline, see my "about" page. :)

I have read the Koran, and the "later revelations" gave me exactly that impression.

I have bee exhorting my opponents to just read the Koran and STFU until they have done so, but they do not believe they have an obligation to know anything about this subject before chiming in with relativism and equivocation.
5 posted on 01/24/2004 7:57:27 AM PST by King Prout ("Islam" is to "Peace" as a Zen Koan is to a binary logical "if-then" statement)
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To: John H K
I agree with your comments.


"most Christians pick and choose what to believe and what to ignore in the Old Testament."

As muslims do with the Koran.

6 posted on 01/24/2004 7:57:31 AM PST by nuconvert ( It's a naive domestic Burgundy without any breeding, ..I think you'll be amused by its presumption)
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To: King Prout
A Prophet of Doom at http://www.prophetofdoom.net/ltr.html

Lot's o'good stuff.
7 posted on 01/24/2004 8:00:07 AM PST by jigsaw (Freeper Fidelis)
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To: jigsaw
oh, DUUUUUUUUUDE!
That site now rides at the head of my "favorites" index.
A thousand thanks.
8 posted on 01/24/2004 8:06:08 AM PST by King Prout ("Islam" is to "Peace" as a Zen Koan is to a binary logical "if-then" statement)
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To: King Prout
Here are some points to check out. - Tom

Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191) "Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

"You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)

The Prophet killed the men of the Jewish tribe Bani Quraiza (some 600 to 800 of them) and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims All the other Jews of Medina were exiled. (Bukhari 5:59:362)

The Prophet had the date-palms of the Jewish tribe of Bani-Al- Nadir burnt and cut down. "It was with Allah's permission" (Koran 59:5)

The Prophet said to Sa'd, :The Bani Quraiza have agreed to accept your verdict" Sa'd said, "Kill all their men and take their women and children as slaves" The Prophet replied, "You have judged according to God's Judgment" (Bukhari 5:59:447)

"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; "Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)

These are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)

"Unbelievers are those who say: 'God is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Surah 5:73

9 posted on 01/24/2004 8:11:24 AM PST by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb republicans. - Capt. Tom)
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To: King Prout
A thousand welcomes!

I've been slowly reading through this entire work and it is fascinating.
10 posted on 01/24/2004 8:12:35 AM PST by jigsaw (Freeper Fidelis)
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To: jigsaw
Jigsaw,

Thanks for the link
11 posted on 01/24/2004 8:26:26 AM PST by bereanway
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To: King Prout
Rather than debate obscure meanings form a foreign language you don't speak and a religion that none of you are (presumably) members of, why not just use the 'by its' fruit is the tree known' approach? Look at the p[arts of the world dominated by Muslims and see how compatible they are with secular governments. It should become apparent which of you are more likely correct by a simple analysis of the daily news over a short period of time.
12 posted on 01/24/2004 8:55:08 AM PST by templar
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To: templar
thing is, the more I read of the Koran etc... the less "obscure" and more clear-text, indisputably, self-evidently VILE Islam appears to be.
13 posted on 01/24/2004 9:21:17 AM PST by King Prout ("Islam" is to "Peace" as a Zen Koan is to a binary logical "if-then" statement)
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To: nuconvert
"most Christians pick and choose what to believe and what to ignore in the Old Testament."

As muslims do with the Koran.

Do you know this for a fact, or do you believe this based on "moderate islamic" apologia, or do you simply hope this is true?

14 posted on 01/24/2004 10:04:31 AM PST by King Prout ("Islam" is to "Peace" as a Zen Koan is to a binary logical "if-then" statement)
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To: King Prout
King,
Poke around here: http://www.faithfreedom.org/

and here: http://www.DanielPipes.org/

One thing to remember is that submission to any man- Prime Minister, President, whoever- is just this side of idol worship to Islam, which demands submission only to God.

Another thing: there is no Mulim equivalent to the Pope, so no single clear interpreter of text and tradition, with all the troubles that can ensue from not having someone, for lack of a better term, in charge.
15 posted on 01/24/2004 10:32:53 AM PST by Gefreiter
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To: King Prout
To get some info on the application of Sharia go to Spencer's websites which include www.jihadwatch.org and you can link to his dhimmiwatch.org website from there.

He has a listing of all the articles he's written at least recently as well as news articles updated on a daily basis which deal with the subject.
16 posted on 01/24/2004 11:02:48 AM PST by bereanway
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To: bereanway
thankee sai
17 posted on 01/24/2004 11:09:48 AM PST by King Prout ("Islam" is to "Peace" as a Zen Koan is to a binary logical "if-then" statement)
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To: Gefreiter
thanks, those shall be useful... assuming my esteemed opponents care to read (which I begin to very much doubt)
18 posted on 01/24/2004 11:11:26 AM PST by King Prout ("Islam" is to "Peace" as a Zen Koan is to a binary logical "if-then" statement)
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To: King Prout
Having read the Koran - once, some time ago-

I applaud you. I tried it once and just couldn't do it.

19 posted on 01/24/2004 11:17:31 AM PST by CaptRon (Pedecaris alive or Raisuli dead)
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To: CaptRon
the trick is to learn to ignore the obligatory gibberish: "peace be upon his name" "the benevolent, blahblahblah" et omnia generis alia.
Then, one must harden one's heart to the sheer brutality of the ideas expressed.
Then, one must retain the flexibility to twist one's mind along the adaptations of the revelations, from "early" to "late", and as situations during the campaign dictated.
So, yeah, it ain't nothin' nice, that's for certain.
20 posted on 01/24/2004 11:36:14 AM PST by King Prout ("Islam" is to "Peace" as a Zen Koan is to a binary logical "if-then" statement)
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