"Messiah is a matter of belief"

1/23/04 | Rabbi Marc Gellman, Monsignor Tom Hartman

[Catholicguy]

Question; "I am Jewish but have received very little Jewish education. Basically, I know that Jesus was a Jew, as were his early followers. Why did this small group of Jews believe Jesus was the Messiah, while the great majority of Jews denied his Messianic claim? And what are we supposed to be looking for in the Messiah, anyway?

Answer "...The evidence indicating that Jesus' resurrection was a fact, Christians affirm, are the many eyewitnesses described in the Gospels, including the apostles and others who saw the empty tomb and whose testimony was recorded in what became the New Testament. On the other side are those who say that since the evidence of Jesus' resurrection all comes from his followers and from accounts recorded in the New Testament, Jesus resurection cannot be trusted to be an objective historical account...."

<>End of this partial quote from "The God Squad" column published today in the Palm Beach Post.<>

I sent this letter to the Palm Beach Post this morning and I know they won't post it. (They refuse to post nearly all of my letters. Too Christian I suspect).I post it here because I think the historical references are useful as apologetic tools

"The God Squad" cites those opposed to the Messiah as claiming "...Jesus' resurrection cannot be trusted to be an objective historical account...."

Really?

Why do we suppose the Creed references the historical fact Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate? "For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried."

As the Governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, was required to keep Tiberius fully informed as to any important events occuring in his district. He did so. He drafted an account of all the important events that had taken place in reference to Jesus and these acts of Pontius Pilate were received and kept in the archives of the Roman Senate.

Tacitus, rehearsing the history of the burning of Rome attributes it to the Christians, "so called from Christ, who had been put to death during the reign of Tiberius, while Pontius Pilate was governing Judea."

It is interesting to note not a single early enemy of Christianity called this historical account into question when it could have been so easily contradicted had these events not occured. Where is the evidence any pagan opposed the early Christian apologists by contravening this history?

The early Christian apologists cited the acts of Pontius Pilate. St. Justin Martyr quoted the words from the acts of Pontius Pilate, "Jesus was fastened to the cross with nails through his hands and feet, and those who had crucified him afterwards cast lots for his garments, which they divided amongst them."

St. Justin adds, "This is what you can easily know by reference to the acts written under Pontius Pilate."

Tertullian writes, "Pilate, somewhat a Christian in his conscience, wrote an account of all these things regarding Christ to Tiberius, then Emperor. Henceforth, the Emperors would have believed in Jesus Christ if the Caesars had not been the slaves of the world or if Christians could have been Caesars. Be that as it may, when Tiberius, under whose reign the Christain name was spread throughout the world, had learned from Palestine all the facts that proved the divinity of Christ, he urged the Senate to place him in the rank of the gods and gave his own vote for this purpose. The Senate, not admiring the proposal rejected it. The Emperor persisted in his views, and threatened with his anger any one who should accuse the Christians." Then, speaking of the miracles that occured at the death of our Lord, he says; "You have the account thereof in your archives."

Eusebius of Caesarea (Church Historian), "The miraculous resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ having become famous and it being an ancient custom that the governors of provinces should send to the Emperor an account of anything new that turned up in their administration, so that he might be fully informed of everything that came to pass, Pontius Pilate acquainted Tiberius with the resurrection of the Saviour, which was known to everyone in Palestine. He (Pilate) also remarked that he had learned that Jesus had performed many miracles , and had, since His resurrection, been recognised by many persons as a God. Tiberius, having heard these things, mentioined them to the Senate, and proposed that Jesus Christ should be placed in the rank of the gods. The Senate opposed the project under the pretext that there was an ancient law which forbade any person to be admitted into the rank of the gods except by a decree of the Senate; but the real reason of the refusal was that the Christian Religion, being divine, should not be established by the authority of men. The Senate having therefore rejected the proposal, the Emperor did not cease to maintain his opinion and attempted nothing against the doctrine of Jesus Christ."

Is it too much to ask of "The God Squad" that they read some history before they undertake the task of telling others about the Messiah

<> end of letter<>

I didn't cite Josephus, Tranquillas, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, ect because I wanted to keep the letter to a publishable length.

[Dave S]

If one had to try the case of whether Jesus was God or not...the evidence is there as are a multitude of reliable witnesses to the truth..and this is how we establish truth and reality..on the words of a number of reliable witnesses who have nothing to gain and everything to lose in the world...for witnessing to that truth...

Okay, so many witness. Have ten of them come forward and testify and be cross examined. Oh, they've been dead for two thousand years. Ooops!! Are these the same witnesses that said that Jesus told them he would return during their lifetimes? I think they have a credibility problem. They do much better fitting prophecy after the fact than when making a prophecy in advance.

[Catholicguy]

Historians, yes; but Bishops, Popes and Saints? No.

And their writings -- for 1400 years -- were under the control of, guess who?

You are kidding, right?

Not only that, but after the printing press was invented (15th century AD), the Inquisition took over to control people ... for an additional 200 years plus.

Hmmm, I see we missed you and your ilk :)

The Inquisition is the rhetorical kitchen sink tossed-in by those losing an arguement.

I won't be distracted from the topic of the thread except to note we Catholics only imitated the First Inquisitor, Moses, who killed 47,000 - including women and children - in just two days; which is far greater a number of souls that we Catholics sent to the State (in CENTURIES of operation) to be bumped off.

[Catholicguy]

all good points, brother

[Dave S]

So, why did the Pagans of the Roman Senate debate whether or not Jesus ought be ommitted to the rank of Gods?

And why not? The Romans had so many Gods and they didn't really believe in any of them. They were for political reasons. Allowing those conquered by Rome to keep their Gods as long as they also accepted the Emperor as God too, kept them in line and more docile.

[Willing To Listen]

EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT by Josh McDowell Volume 1 (not Volume 2) is a fantastic book for those searching for answers. It is an extensive research on the historical evidences of the Christian faith.

[tang-soo]

Psalms 22 penned by King David, hundreds of years before the event, and spoken by Christ hanging on the cross.

Also Isaiah 53.

[antiRepublicrat]

After what date? I'd say it was after the church council that put the Bible together. I forget, however, the name and date of that council.

360 AD, Laodocia Council. They had a few hundred years to get a lot of it wrong.

[Catholicguy]

Great name. Pelayo was one of the great Catholic Spanish heros.

[thinktwice]

360 AD, Laodocia Council.

The coming together of the Bible event!

Thank you ...!

[Dave S]

Psalms 22 penned by King David, hundreds of years before the event, and spoken by Christ hanging on the cross.

Also Isaiah 53.

If I speak Psalms 22 and Isiah 53 on my deathbed, does that make me God? He had hundreds of years to figure out how to fulfull prophecy. Also, after the fact it was quite easy for Jesus followers to go through Isaih and decide this would make for good prophecy, lets put some comment in our letter to so and so suggesting he made a comment about it... like it was prophecy or something. Wow. Make the prophecy, put it in a locked safe for a thousand years and then open it after the event and then maybe I will get excited.

[antiRepublicrat]

For thousands of years, he would not allow himself to "simply" forgive Adam and eve, or just don't blame their descendants for their mistake. So he sent his son to be killed on the cross in order to allow himself to forgive that historic mistake. It is a very puzzling and unusual logic.

It doesn't have to be logical. This is religion, it requires faith. If everything in a religion were simple proven fact then there would be no need for faith, no need for the religion in the first place.

The place where we butt heads is when the apologists try to take something built on faith and make fact and logic out of it. Such an effort usually results in logic strained to the absurd. Likewise, an atheist trying to prove that God doesn't exist also faces the same problems in crossing the line between faith and logic/fact.

You get the same problem in the creation/evolution issue with people trying to leverage their faith into the area of science to explain how we are here, which brings results as as absurd as would a scientist trying to explain why we are here.

[thinktwice]

the Inquisition as an institution never actually existed. AN inquisition was simply a tribunal not an organization

In 1483, at the nomination and request of Ferdinand and Isabella, Pope Sixtus IV appointed a Dominican friar, Tomas de Toquemada, inquisitor general for all of Spain. He was a sincere and incorruptible fanatic ...

Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization," Vol 6, page 213.

[thinktwice]

trying to prove that God doesn't exist

Here's one for contemplation ...

If God created all that exists in reality, how is it that people can think that God exists in reality?

Did God create God?

[Just mythoughts]

True, over and over and over it was written.

Thanks

[philosofy123]

I do agree with you about religion and faith. But the reason I raised the question because of the REAL CONCEPT of Messiah! If we needed a savior, we must ask saving us from what? The answer will always come from the original sin of Adam and Eve. That is where I get all puzzled about the forgiving God, and how unable he was to let go of such a minor transgression in comparison to what awful crimes and sins the world is loaded with today.

[tiamat]

Thanks!

:-)

Tia

[Catholicguy]

I am not a prophet. Nevertheless, I am confident I will be proven to have spoken the truth in saying the following - You will not be so dismissive of historical reality during your Particular Judgement.

Good-bye. May God have Mercy on your soul.

[Pelayo]

Think Twice. The Spanish inquisition was a collection of lawyers and investigators who would go from town to town on a regular basis, hear charges, investigate charges, have a trial, proclaim a verdict, then dissolve. There was an official body that had oversight of the whole thing (the afore mentioned office of Grand Inquisitor) however beyond that it was not much of an organization. But even the Spanish inquisition was unusual in that it was more permanent, in form, then the inquisitions of other countries; and it was more tied to the government.

[Catholicguy]

There is no animosity twixt Faith and Reason. Orthodox Faith and Right Reason are brothers.

[Catholicguy]

Let me see if I got this right.

No. You didn't get it right. Reread it and see.