"Messiah is a matter of belief"

1/23/04 | Rabbi Marc Gellman, Monsignor Tom Hartman

[Dave S]

If one had to try the case of whether Jesus was God or not...the evidence is there as are a multitude of reliable witnesses to the truth..and this is how we establish truth and reality..on the words of a number of reliable witnesses who have nothing to gain and everything to lose in the world...for witnessing to that truth...

Okay, so many witness. Have ten of them come forward and testify and be cross examined. Oh, they've been dead for two thousand years. Ooops!! Are these the same witnesses that said that Jesus told them he would return during their lifetimes? I think they have a credibility problem. They do much better fitting prophecy after the fact than when making a prophecy in advance.

[Catholicguy]

Historians, yes; but Bishops, Popes and Saints? No.

And their writings -- for 1400 years -- were under the control of, guess who?

You are kidding, right?

Not only that, but after the printing press was invented (15th century AD), the Inquisition took over to control people ... for an additional 200 years plus.

Hmmm, I see we missed you and your ilk :)

The Inquisition is the rhetorical kitchen sink tossed-in by those losing an arguement.

I won't be distracted from the topic of the thread except to note we Catholics only imitated the First Inquisitor, Moses, who killed 47,000 - including women and children - in just two days; which is far greater a number of souls that we Catholics sent to the State (in CENTURIES of operation) to be bumped off.

[Catholicguy]

all good points, brother

[Dave S]

So, why did the Pagans of the Roman Senate debate whether or not Jesus ought be ommitted to the rank of Gods?

And why not? The Romans had so many Gods and they didn't really believe in any of them. They were for political reasons. Allowing those conquered by Rome to keep their Gods as long as they also accepted the Emperor as God too, kept them in line and more docile.

[Willing To Listen]

EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT by Josh McDowell Volume 1 (not Volume 2) is a fantastic book for those searching for answers. It is an extensive research on the historical evidences of the Christian faith.

[tang-soo]

Psalms 22 penned by King David, hundreds of years before the event, and spoken by Christ hanging on the cross.

Also Isaiah 53.

[antiRepublicrat]

After what date? I'd say it was after the church council that put the Bible together. I forget, however, the name and date of that council.

360 AD, Laodocia Council. They had a few hundred years to get a lot of it wrong.

[Catholicguy]

Great name. Pelayo was one of the great Catholic Spanish heros.

[thinktwice]

360 AD, Laodocia Council.

The coming together of the Bible event!

Thank you ...!

[Dave S]

Psalms 22 penned by King David, hundreds of years before the event, and spoken by Christ hanging on the cross.

Also Isaiah 53.

If I speak Psalms 22 and Isiah 53 on my deathbed, does that make me God? He had hundreds of years to figure out how to fulfull prophecy. Also, after the fact it was quite easy for Jesus followers to go through Isaih and decide this would make for good prophecy, lets put some comment in our letter to so and so suggesting he made a comment about it... like it was prophecy or something. Wow. Make the prophecy, put it in a locked safe for a thousand years and then open it after the event and then maybe I will get excited.

[antiRepublicrat]

For thousands of years, he would not allow himself to "simply" forgive Adam and eve, or just don't blame their descendants for their mistake. So he sent his son to be killed on the cross in order to allow himself to forgive that historic mistake. It is a very puzzling and unusual logic.

It doesn't have to be logical. This is religion, it requires faith. If everything in a religion were simple proven fact then there would be no need for faith, no need for the religion in the first place.

The place where we butt heads is when the apologists try to take something built on faith and make fact and logic out of it. Such an effort usually results in logic strained to the absurd. Likewise, an atheist trying to prove that God doesn't exist also faces the same problems in crossing the line between faith and logic/fact.

You get the same problem in the creation/evolution issue with people trying to leverage their faith into the area of science to explain how we are here, which brings results as as absurd as would a scientist trying to explain why we are here.

[thinktwice]

the Inquisition as an institution never actually existed. AN inquisition was simply a tribunal not an organization

In 1483, at the nomination and request of Ferdinand and Isabella, Pope Sixtus IV appointed a Dominican friar, Tomas de Toquemada, inquisitor general for all of Spain. He was a sincere and incorruptible fanatic ...

Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization," Vol 6, page 213.

[thinktwice]

trying to prove that God doesn't exist

Here's one for contemplation ...

If God created all that exists in reality, how is it that people can think that God exists in reality?

Did God create God?

[Just mythoughts]

True, over and over and over it was written.

Thanks

[philosofy123]

I do agree with you about religion and faith. But the reason I raised the question because of the REAL CONCEPT of Messiah! If we needed a savior, we must ask saving us from what? The answer will always come from the original sin of Adam and Eve. That is where I get all puzzled about the forgiving God, and how unable he was to let go of such a minor transgression in comparison to what awful crimes and sins the world is loaded with today.

[tiamat]

Thanks!

:-)

Tia

[Catholicguy]

I am not a prophet. Nevertheless, I am confident I will be proven to have spoken the truth in saying the following - You will not be so dismissive of historical reality during your Particular Judgement.

Good-bye. May God have Mercy on your soul.

[Pelayo]

Think Twice. The Spanish inquisition was a collection of lawyers and investigators who would go from town to town on a regular basis, hear charges, investigate charges, have a trial, proclaim a verdict, then dissolve. There was an official body that had oversight of the whole thing (the afore mentioned office of Grand Inquisitor) however beyond that it was not much of an organization. But even the Spanish inquisition was unusual in that it was more permanent, in form, then the inquisitions of other countries; and it was more tied to the government.

[Catholicguy]

There is no animosity twixt Faith and Reason. Orthodox Faith and Right Reason are brothers.

[Catholicguy]

Let me see if I got this right.

No. You didn't get it right. Reread it and see.