"Messiah is a matter of belief"

1/23/04 | Rabbi Marc Gellman, Monsignor Tom Hartman

[macamadamia]

You've refuted the God Squad's assertion that "...Jesus' resurrection cannot be trusted to be an objective historical account...." However, you've only provided historical references concerning the crucifixion. Not the resurrection. You've replaced one argument with another.

[Salvation]

Ping!

[Dave S]

You are debating against the wrong claim. You are trying to make a case that Yeshua existed in the first place, while the God Squad was claiming historical doubt only for his purported resurrection

I hope Catholicguy realizes that half of the God Squad that he is complaining about is a Catholic Priest.

Obviously the historical question is about purported resurrection, not his existence or death. There is more historical evidence for Jesus than for many figures of distant history. But the claims of the Bible are not historical fact. Catholicguy may accept them as such but that doesnt mean that historians do. It's a matter of faith, not history.

The fact that Pilate would report to the Senate what all the fuss was about in Judea related as much to covering his ass over continued political and religious unrest in the area. Not that Pilate was a convert because he stood outside the tomb and saw Christ resurrected or because he saw Christ walk through walls or ascend to Heaven.

[Just mythoughts]

May not for you, however, for me it coming from King David, the King line, tribe of Judah, line through which Christ came through, the blood line protected from Genesis til the birth of Christ. Although Luke lets us know that Mary was from the tribes of Judah and Levi, the King line and the Priest line (Melchisedec - New Testment and Melchizedek Old Testment)

Psalms 22 as was written in the original, (before men tinkered with) as well as Christ words give credibility to Christ being whom He claimed to be.

Zechariah 9:9 Describes the first advent and 9:10 describes the second.

Zechariah 11: 10-17 tell of the first advent, even describing the price of a slave 30 pieces of silver.

Isaiah 7:14 a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son

These are but a few places in the Old, which is what Christ taught from, making it part of the New which gives credibility to Christ being whom He said He was.

[antiRepublicrat]

Catholic prelates and monks had about 1400 years to gather, control, choose, comtemplate and rework biblical era tales before Guttenberg invented the printing press.

Up until the point of collating the disparate stories into one Bible, I'll give you the vagaries of mistranslation, reinterpretation, misattribution and plain insertion of stuff people thought should be there. But afterwards, the monk scribes were EXTREMELY careful about getting every word right, often taking one year to transcribe one copy, with thorough reviews including word and letter counts in addition to proofreading.

[antiRepublicrat]

Most faced death as a result of their beliefs. And if they were faking it then they knew that God would get them in the afterlife. They got nothing out of it so its difficult to believe that they would have thrown everything away for a lie.

Never underestimate what the mind of a cult follower is capable of, what warped results you get from what you'd think is evidence against them. It is a known set of psychological phenomena.

Case in point, prophecies -- even those the cult is based upon -- that do not come true do not shake the belief of the followers in the truth of the "word." In fact the followers rationalize the false prophecy and usually redouble their faith and efforts towards the cult. I believe there was even a recent cult where their version of Revelations was aliens coming to pick up the cult members. When it didn't happen, they just got more devoted.

If false prophecies hurt faith, there would be no more Jehova's Witnesses left.

[Capriole]

The Palm Beach Post would never have printed what you wrote anyway, so it doesn't make a difference what you wrote. ;-)

But honestly, if you are trying to convince someone, one possible trick is not to write 45 pages, but to write a couple of sentences to pique their curiosity and make them ask, "What do you mean, Jeuss fulfilled Old Testament prophecies?" and then you gradually suck them into the discussion more and more. This is not a discussion for the pages of a newspaper, of course--I'm referring to interactions with nonbelievers in daily life.

[thinktwice]

LOL Bishop Tacitus? Pope Pliny? Saint Tiberius?

Historians, yes; but Bishops, Popes and Saints? No.

And their writings -- for 1400 years -- were under the control of, guess who?

Not only that, but after the printing press was invented (15th century AD), the Inquisition took over to control people ... for an additional 200 years plus.

[joesnuffy]

Hundreds of Jesus' miracles were witnessed by 'reliable witnesses' including many of the officer corps of the Roman guard....These reliable witnesses many religious Jews in high places of authority...also testified as to the truth of such events as healing the sick..giving sight to the blind...the total instantaneous cure of advanced leprosy and the raising of the dead.

The phony trial and lying witnesses were also well documented as was the crucifixion of Jesus
His death was witnessed and confirmed by Roman soldiers who pierced His side with a spear to see clear fluid run out (his heart had stopped pumping blood )
Roman guards were put on His tomb (the penalty for falling asleep on guard duty as a Roman soldier was instant death at the hands of a superior...Romans didn't fall asleep on guard duty)
The resurrected Jesus was also seen by many reliable witnesses...who later went to their deaths rather than sign phony papers that gave lie to and denied these miracles of Jesus..

If one had to try the case of whether Jesus was God or not...the evidence is there as are a multitude of reliable witnesses to the truth..and this is how we establish truth and reality..on the words of a number of reliable witnesses who have nothing to gain and everything to lose
in the world...for witnessing to that truth...

[keats5]

"Catholic prelates and monks had about 1400 years to gather, control, choose, comtemplate and rework biblical era tales before Guttenberg invented the printing press."

Which is why the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls was so amazing. For example, the Mssianic prophecies from the Isaiah scroll remained essentially the same in these scrolls as in the vast majority of today's Bibles. Many had claimed Isaiah had been rewritten to reflect Christ's death after the fact, in an attempt to disprove it's prophetic accuracy. We now know that the earliest Isaiah scroll also describes Christ crucifiction and death with amazing accuracy, even though it was indeed written about 700 years before Christ walked the earth.

[antiRepublicrat]

To be fair to the Witnesses before I start getting slammed for it, a Witness friend did give me one good simple explanation for the false prophecies, "We're only human, so we make mistakes." This is much better than others who have tried to downplay and erase the previous prophecies.

[Catholicguy]

Thanks for the tip, brother.

[Catholicguy]

You didn't read carefully enough. Try again

[Catholicguy]

I hope Catholicguy realizes that half of the God Squad that he is complaining about is a Catholic Priest.

Yeah, I sort of knew that seeing as how one of their names is "Monsignor Tom Harmon" and the photo of him in his Roman Collar accompanies every column when it is printed and I have seen he and the rabbi on TV ect ect.

Obviously the historical question is about purported resurrection, not his existence or death. There is more historical evidence for Jesus than for many figures of distant history. But the claims of the Bible are not historical fact. Catholicguy may accept them as such but that doesnt mean that historians do. It's a matter of faith, not history.

You'd make a poor Juror automatically gainsaying thousands of witnesses based upon your antiChristian bigotry.

The fact that Pilate would report to the Senate what all the fuss was about in Judea related as much to covering his ass over continued political and religious unrest in the area. Not that Pilate was a convert because he stood outside the tomb and saw Christ resurrected or because he saw Christ walk through walls or ascend to Heaven.

So, why did the Pagans of the Roman Senate debate whether or not Jesus ought be ommitted to the rank of Gods?

[philosofy123]

This post is not only for you, but for the rest of the Christians of all denominations on this board.

I would like to take this whole thing to its beginning. God created Adam, and Eve. He ordered them not to eat from the fruit of some tree. They ate, and he got upset. He is supposedly a forgiving god, but he would never let go of this one mistake. For thousands of years, he would not allow himself to "simply" forgive Adam and eve, or just don't blame their descendants for their mistake. So he sent his son to be killed on the cross in order to allow himself to forgive that historic mistake. It is a very puzzling and unusual logic. How a forgiving God is unable, or not willing to forgive one single mistake for thousands of years, and in the same time is NOW able to forgive millions of atrocities that are committed by all of us?

Please do not take offense of my question. It is very important for us to examine the entire picture. Moslems do not allow anybody to question things without throwing the label blasphemy at him, and so are the old Christians and Jews, however, let us rationally and dispassionately discuss this premise. Thanks.

[jimt]

Let me see if I got this right.

Secular (Roman) records attest to the crucifixion of Jesus.

Secular (Roman) records do not attest to the resurrection of Jesus.

Religious (Christian) accounts attest to Jesus's resurrection.

[Catholicguy]

Oh, I agree with you. However, I just chose to respond to what I thought would pique the interest of Christians about what has become bolierplate rhetoric for the atheists - that outside of the Bible there is no proof Jesus lived, was crucified, resurrected ect

What I didn't do was to respond as you might have responded. Keep your eyes open. Maybe your local paper will carry this column and you can respond as you desire. When you do, you give every indication you will do a smashing job, sister.

[macamadamia]

"You didn't read carefully enough. Try again"

No, actually I won't. You've failed to make your case and based on your poorly reasoned letter to the "God Squad" and your "about page" I'd say your problem is lucidity and brevity. Examine your OWN writing before you burden others with your convolutions.

Read carefully......and try again!

[thinktwice]

But afterwards, the monk scribes were EXTREMELY careful

After what date? I'd say it was after the church council that put the Bible together. I forget, however, the name and date of that council.

[Pelayo]

Not only that, but after the printing press was invented (15th century AD), the Inquisition took over to control people ... for an additional 200 years plus.

Contrary to the comic book history of popular myth, the Inquisition as an institution never actually existed. AN inquisition was simply a tribunal not an organization. Their was no defined body of inquisitors to “control the people.”.