So you think George W. Bush is not a conservative?

SOTU transcript ^ | 1/22/04

[Luis Gonzalez]

"It was the gun-rights 'extremists' who elected the Republican House in '94."

Extremists, by their very nature, elect no one, the center elects people.

Proof in the pudding, let the extreme right wing leave the GOP and hold an election, the center's voters may win it. Let the center leave the GOP, hold an election, and there isn't a chance in hell that the GOP will win.

[George W. Bush]

Not voting doesn't send any kind of powerful message to the parties. The message not voting sends is that most voters don't give a s**t no matter what the politicians do.

Wrong.

In the last 20-30 years, since the days of party-boss brokered conventions, both parties have ignored their own bases in favor of catering to swing voters.

However, strategists in both parties can point to elections where they believe they have lost because they alienated their own base, not because they failed to pander enough to some bunch of soccer moms or NASCAR dads or whoever has been nominated as the most idiotic bloc of voters in any particular election year.

There has been, in both parties, quite a bit of serious talk about how 2004 is the year to pay attention to your base voters. Of course, these same people were predicting Dean as the inevitable Dim nominee a week ago so their advice may not look so good right now.

After all, in 2000 the Greens could have elected Gore. And the three million evangelical Christians who stayed home could have turned out and made the difference for Bush and we would have avoided the Battle For Floriduh. I'm talking here about voters in both parties with strong known political opinions and voting history but who failed to turn out. And doing so in numbers too large to ignore if you're running a tight presidential race or trying to take the Senate or elect state officials.

It's not just the top of the ticket. It's the downstream candidates too.

So you may not get the 'message' that's imparted when party activists and the base refuse to vote. But don't assume the political strategists and pollsters hold that same opinion. The 2000 election rubbed their noses in it.

[Godebert]

"You guys who threaten not to vote for Bush because he hasn't done enough for YOU need to start to think about the COUNTRY above your own egos!"

I'm not threatening anything. I didn't vote for him last election and I won't be voting for him this election either. I will be actively working to bring CONSERVATIVE voters to the CONSTITUTION PARTY. George Bush is a moderate socialist at best. He knowingly VIOLATED his oath of office by signing McCain/Fiengold's Campaign Finance Reform Bill, violating our 1st Amendment Freedoms. He has also indicated that he supports renewal of the un-Constitutional so-called "Assault Weapons" ban. Freedom of Speech and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms might not mean much to you.....but Bush will discover this upcoming election that it still means something to many Americans, myself included.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"In his book , GWB wrote, "the most compassionate way to deal with illegals is to stop them at the border."

That remains constant in his proposal, what pisses people off is what he thinks should be done about the ones that got past the border.

[Capitalist Eric]

Nobody can come up with a solution to picking the crops w/o cheap Mexican labor. This is the heart of this discussion and the hole in the anti-Bush argument.

Actually, this is only one of many holes in the pro-amnesty argument.

It's called "technological innovation." It's how we we've been able to produce as much food as we do- even before the invading hordes of Mexicans decided to come to the USA illegally.

To say that there is no other solution, is to follow the liberal mentality.

My tagline explains this further.

[ravingnutter]

You are piling on someone who hasn't done anything wrong.

Howlin and others tried to explain that the statement was not credible unless it could actually be sourced. Bikers4Bush kept repeating it as fact even after Howlin called the Senators offices and confirmed it was false information. He then tried to prove a point by posting a link that actually did not prove his point at all and is still spinning the inane notion that he is correct. And you think Howlin is piling on? I think Howlin is merely trying to keep Bikers4Bush from creating a riot on the forum, which would most certainly happen if his statement were even remotely true.

[exmarine]

So yes, some solid conservative values are closer to the fringe than the center and if we want to change the nature of the two parties, we have to move the center toward our desired direction.

Or bolt. Believe me, if 10-15 million people bolted the GOP, they would either wake up or face the fate of the Whigs. The problem is that people feel locked into the 2-party system - that's what they want us to feel. But there are other choices. I don't see a mandatory 2-party system in the Constitution. GROUPTHINK is the problem - it has brainwashed people into thinking that they have no choice outside these 2 corrupt parties. I say, RUBBISH!

[PhiKapMom]

Lived in Yucaipa back in the 80's when the migrant workers from Mexico were kept from coming into Orange County to pick the strawberries. Employment wasn't all that great as a lot of people were complaining about not finding work. The growers put out ads, went to the empoyments offices, etc., looking for workers to pick the strawberries. A lot rotted because the Anglo's couldn't take the heat of the fields and quit right away.

I was born and raised in Ohio where we had migrant workers from Mexico all during the harvest for tomatoes, beans, etc. that had to be picked by hand. I didn't think anything about it -- they came for harvest and went back to Mexico after the harvest. Were they here illegally -- I have absolutely no idea but without them, the harvest would not have happened and the produce would have rotted.

[Luis Gonzalez]

OK...I'll put my vote into play here.

I want you to provide me with a listing of the Constitution Party's accomplishments at all levels of the Federal government, so that I may evaluate their performance, their voting record, and what legislation they have enacted to date.

If I find their performance to be satisfactory, I'll vote for their candidates.

[ohioWfan]

Well YOU obviously still have free speech.........and LOTS of it, I might add.

And I assume you still have your gun? He hasn't come into your house and taken it from you yet, has he?

I said LONG ago on this thread, Vote for whomever you like. Just understand that a vote for your "Constitution" favorite is the same thing as a vote for a Democrat....

[exmarine]

I'm already on board. In Calif., it's called the AIPCA. I will vote Constitution Party down the line, with a slight possibility of a vote for Alan Keyes for President (if he runs).

[MEG33]

Only God can protect us...and that is why I pray for our President to be led.I pray for those who make decisions,knowing nothing but the grace of God will save me.

I am not afraid personally.I fear for others,like those in New York ,or Washington or our military in harms way.I pray we make wise decisions in God's will.I thank God for the accident of my birth in this great country and the courage of my ancestors who helped fight for it and build it.

[gatorbait]

LOL...Kirk lived by three rules: HHmmmm...but was he conservative enough?

Sadly ,no.He met his fate being stoned in Pat Buchanan's temple, with rocks formed and supplied by Alan Keyes.The full record of this is in the Harry Browne Presidential Library.

[deport]

Let me see if I understand all this ….

• the democrat dwarfs have been in nonstop campaign mode for months bashing the President on everything they can find
• The media has been following them and reporting their events, hosting their debates, etc.
• The pollsters are running almost daily polls about them, who is leading, who is rising, who is falling
• One caucus has been held with the results throwing everything upside down
• President Bush issues a Guest Worker proposal and the entire base has suddenly headed for the hills
• Some conservative pundits/media/organizations issue scathing assessments of his proposal(s)

All the above and much more has happened over the past few months. Yet we find the following at this juncture:

• President Bush’s approval ratings are somewhere around 50% or better
• The economy seems to be turning around
• The Bush/Cheney campaign hasn’t held any campaign events, appearances with other candidates, media buys, rallies, etc.
• The Bush/Cheney campaign has something over $100+ million in their war chest at this time
• President Bush has no strong primary opponent

Now I’m to believe that the President is in a dire political position, will lose his Republican base, likely be defeated, etc. etc. etc. And he’s not even begun the campaign. I suspect that the President’s campaign will begin after it becomes evident who the Democrat opponent will be and then you’ll see the release of the $100+ millions to promote the President and contrast him positions/policies against his opponents.

I suggest that in July after his campaign has been up and running and if the President is in political problems regarding his re-election then there will be something to worry about….. Until them I see nothing but the yelling of fire from the ones opposed to him and they don’t intend to vote for him and most likely didn’t vote for him. The first salvo of the President’s campaign has yet to be fired….

GO BUSH GO

[international american]

So we need 12 million illegals to pick fruit and veggies:)

ROTF!!

[exmarine]

I understand and respect your position. I felt like you 3 years ago. But the liberal policies are simply inexplicable. Many of Mr. Bush's policies are decidedly un-Christian in their very nature....like rewarding illegal immigrants and making taxpayers pay FORCED CHARITY for their welfare, and his schmoozing with Log Cabin Republicans, appt. of gays, support for USSC quotas in MI, praising a gay church, absence of his support for constitutional ban on abortion and a marriage amendment, kowtowing to the Chinese at the expense of Taiwan's independence, and on and on. The man seems to be trying to please everyone or trying not to offend others. I don't understand these positions but they most definitely are not conservative in the classic sense.

As Popeye would say, "I've taken all I can stands and I can't takes anymore. hukukukukukuk"

[Ophiucus]

In the last 20-30 years, since the days of party-boss brokered conventions

That's been going on since the inception of conventions. there's a great story on how Lincoln was nominated by the party bosses.

The rise of media has meant the decline of importance of conventions as candidates are selected by the popular vote through the media and not by by convention deals. The saying is that Lincoln would not have won nomination in today's politics but Clinton never would have been nominated by party bosses in convention.

So you may not get the 'message' that's imparted when party activists and the base refuse to vote.

The message remains the same. Those who stay home don't care or maybe are sulking with a "take my ball and go home" attitude.

Those who actually care and are responsible - if alienated - will go out and vote for another candidate. That's a message sent by someone who cares about the nation - not someone who stays home.

[ravingnutter]

Calling people liars or racists is highly unproductive.

First of all, I never called anyone a racist. Secondly, I call 'em as I see 'em...what do YOU call someone who you catch in an outright lie not only once, but twice? Finally, letting them tell their lies is highly unproductive too, as I have to waste my time disputing the lies that naive people believe and post all over the forum rather than the simple process of ending the lie when it begins on one thread by posting facts that can be traced to a credible source. Don't lecture me.

[bray]

To say that there is no other solution, is to follow the liberal mentality.

As a capitalist you must realize that the free market controls the prices of wages, goods and services. If there were a cheaper way to pick crops it would be invented. The free market is actually at work when Mexicans cross the border to pick our crops. Please send your suggestions of cheaper technology to the farmers of America. As it is they are losing marketshare to Chili and South America.

Calling me a liberal only proves that you have no answer to the question.

Pray for W and The Truth

[international american]

Have you noticed how people have put the war on terror ABOVE all other issues in the coming election? They think the government can protect them. They are sadly mistaken. Only God can protect them."

AMEN!