[RaceBannon]

I do not believe the Shroud is genuine.

The Bible accounts of burial techniques disprove the image.

(John 11:43 KJV) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

(John 11:44 KJV) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.



Lazarus had a napkin around his head. If the shroud was around him, also, there would still be a napkin around his head.

So did Jesus.

(John 20:6 KJV) Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

(John 20:7 KJV) And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

(John 20:8 KJV) Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

To believe that the entire shroud had an image of Christ onit, this image had to be created also through this napkin.

IF this is His image, then it all would be a miracle. But, to not only go through the napkin, and onto the shroud, BUT HAVE NO NAPKIN which would have been DIRECTLY attached to His face, tells me this is a hoax.

[Ff--150]

All RIGHT!! Time for the "experts" show up. Hehehe. Fun City. Sudarium of Oviedo , Shroud of Turin. Let the names be called =-)

[RightOnline]

That would be the Sudarium........located in Oviedo, Spain.

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

[Graymatter]

No napkin, thus hoax.

If it's a hoax it's a darn good one, continuing to stump us for all our 21st c science. I wouldn't make up my mind on the absence of another cloth. If some unknown energy transferred the image onto the shroud, it might also have transferred an image onto a napkin---some lost souvenir we can't examine. And how uniform was the practice of preparing the dead, do you know? I've been reading about the shroud since the 1960's, my verdict is still out. It would be nice to have a photographic record of the Lord but perhaps holiness in an object is still more mischief than it's worth.

[RightOnline]

Sudarium aside.........the Shroud is anything but a hoax. This has been shown pretty clearly in years of research for those who choose to read it.

[Swordmaker]

and his face was bound about with a napkin

Race, that is a good point.

However, there is no discrepancy. The cloth around the face, the napkin, was a binding to keep the jaws closed. It went under the beard, around the head by the ears and was tied at the top. It did NOT cover his face.

That cloth STILL exists! It has matching blood stains and bears a very strong correlation to the shroud. Both have human blood of Type AB, the blood stains appear to have come from the same head wounds. This second cloth is called the Sudarium of Oviedo and has been kept since the sixth century in a church in Oviedo Spain.

There is some scholarship that indicates the Sudarium was placed over Jesus' face while he was still on the cross to cover his dead image, perhaps from his mother. The cloth was probably then re-used as the head-jaw binding.

If you research the relevant passages in the original Greek, much of your concerns disappear. The words used "othonia" and "sindon" are synonomous with "binding cloth" and "shroud" respectively. Another greek term also used is a generic term for "burial cloths," meaning all of the various bindings and shroud used. There is NO evidence that Jews ever bound their dead like mummies.

[FSPress]

While I was reading this article, I was reminded of writing with "invisible ink" as a kid. A sugar water solution will dry clear on a piece of paper and then show up as brown writing when the paper is exposed to mild heat. We also used a rubber date stamp to stamp the date on the paper with our invisible ink. I wonder if this image was stamped (perhaps using a persons actual face as the stamp with some enhancements in a stronger sugar solution painted in) onto the cloth with sugar water and then gently heated to make the image appear. Also, one thing has always puzzled me, if the body were lying down I would not expect the hair to be framing the face as shown, it would have fallen back.

Oh well, I will leave it to the experts in these matters to determine if the shroud is real.

[aruanan]

BUT HAVE NO NAPKIN which would have been DIRECTLY attached to His face, tells me this is a hoax.

There is nothing in the text that indicates this was the case for either Lazarus or Jesus. You're doing quite a bit of eisegesis, apparently without even being aware of it. That is, you haven't been able to separate your interpretation from the data and are seeing things that just aren't there.

[MissAmericanPie]

Race I didn't know if you were aware of this or not, but they also have the face napkin, and it also has this same face imprinted on it, when they laid it across the shroud it was obvious that the two matched.

When the muslims were pushing north in their conquest, the shroud took one route, the face napkin another each being moved farther north ahead of the invasion.

The sundown of the day of Christs temporary burial was the Sabbath, they did a hurried job when placing him in the tomb with the intention of returning to give him a proper entombment. But he had risen.

I can't write off the evidence, I'm still in a holding pattern until all the evidence is in. But they do in fact have the face napkin as well as the shroud.