The Pope's Thumbs Up for Gibson's 'Passion' (Liberal Jewish writer accuses Mel of using the Pope)

NY Times ^ | January 18, 2004 | FRANK RICH

[dsc]

Do you think you could provide us with another Jan Sobieski?

We REALLY need one.

[Thorin]

I suspect if someone were to write an article saying that the Talmud was a "crude forgery" that had been edited to foster hostility to Christianity, he would be accused of anti-Semitism. That is, essentially, what those attempting to censor Gibson's movie are saying about the Gospels, except they're saying those forgeries are anti-Semitic.

[presidio9]

The movie does not need "endorsement" from the Pope to make money. Approval from the Pope does serve to hold religious scholars/critics at bay who might argue with the accuracy of the presentation. The Pope is not the final authority on all things Christian (at least for protestants) but he has devoted his life to religious teachings.

Good, because the film is specifically a Catholic's account of the Passion (and therefore a Christian one). In all matters Catholic, the Pope is the final authority. This may make you uncomfortable, but it's a fact.

[presidio9]

So you're fine with Jews, as long as they keep their mouths shut? That's good to know...

When it comes to any religion, I am fine with its members as long as they adhere to the cultural understanding that they don't presume to intruct me how to practice mine, and I won't tell them how to practice theirs.

Well, most religions. I can think of one notable exception, but the Jews are not too fond of that particular religion either.

[veronica]

No shame on the writer of the article?

If memory serves only a few days ago Vatican sources confirmed that the Pope had NOT said about this film what Gibson and his people claim. On that point, Frank Rich has been vindicated.

[SJackson]

Heck, Frank Rich should be ashamed of his criticism of the film without seeing it. Of course shame was being discussed in the context of other posters now deceased statements (which I excerpted earlier) such as

Why do Jews try to kill the Truth? What do they want to gain?

I've rather sympathized with Jews so far. This time my viewpoints have changed completely. I am a Christian and I'm not going to sit and watch Christ being savaged by the group of hateful Jews.

Jews! Leave Christ and Christians alone!!!

You know, those nasty Jews always persecuting Christians, that conclusion flowing from this article. There's plenty of shame to go around.

[SJackson]

Well, there's lots of hate to go around. For example the hate expressed by a rabbi writing in the Jerusalem Post saying the passages in Gopsel of Matthew where the crowd accepts respsonsibility for Jesus' death were "crude forgeries" and saying that the New Testament had been edited to make it hostile to Jews. Or Abe Foxman of the ADL telling all who would listen that the Gospels were anti-Semitic. Or the entire ADL effort (assisted by some self-hating Christian theologians) to censor Gibson's film precisely because it is faithful to the Gospels' depiction of the Passion. When people outside my faith presume to tell me what I may believe, or claim that the Gospels are "anti-Semitic," that's offensive.

No question about it. Of course, unlike other posters, you seem to be able to tell the difference between individual Jews and Christians (your description, self hating) and Jews and Christians.

[weegee]

Would Catholics have avoided the film if the Pope had offered no public statement?

[presidio9]

Nope, but historically the Pope's opinion on religious-themed works of art has always mattered to Catholics. Catholics did avoid seeing The Last Temptation of Christ because he told them not to.

[presidio9]

Of course shame was being discussed in the context of other posters now deceased statements (which I excerpted earlier) such as

And now you are doning the same thing to amplify your enviornment of persecution. The quotes you provided all came from the same person.

[weegee]

A lot of protestants also boycotted that film.

[dsc]

"In all matters Catholic, the Pope is the final authority."

Well, no, actually: the Bible is the final authority for Catholics, being as how it's the Word of God and all. The Pope has no authority to contradict scripture.

[dsc]

"If memory serves only a few days ago Vatican sources confirmed that the Pope had NOT said about this film what Gibson and his people claim."

I think we need to parse the Vatican's statement using the Clinton algorithm.

The version I read said that the Holy Father had made no such "declaration."

If one makes a distinction between a Papal declaration and a spontaneous and informal private remark, as I suspect (with about 90% confidence) that they are doing, then they haven't said that "He didn't say it," they've only said that he made no such "declaration."

I think he said it, and that the Vatican is using this deceptive and hair-splitting syntax to *appear to deny* without actually lying, because they don't want to be placed in the position of touting a movie.

I think they're afraid of commercials with a picture of the Holy Father lifting the chalice and a caption, "The Pope says, 'Mel Gibson's new film? I'll drink to that.' "

Of course, Mr. Gibson would never allow such a thing, but I get the impression that most of the people at the Vatican are 99% bureaucrat and at best 1% priest, and you know what bureaucrats are like.

Which brings me to my final point: you wrote, "...Gibson and his people claim."

I've seen people who don't work for him writing about it, but nothing from him or his people. Have you?

[drjimmy]

I've seen people who don't work for him writing about it, but nothing from him or his people. Have you?
The sole source for the claim that the Pope commented positively on the movie is the movie's producer and assistant director. Certainly they would be considered Gibson's "people."

[lonestar]

Email from friends who went to a screening---

Hey friends and family, Last night I attended a private screening of Mel Gibson's movie...12/8/2003, at Ricky Skaggs' church in Hendersonville. There were about 200 people in attendance.

Well,....let me just say that I am speechless, moved beyond words and sobered by what I saw last night. I'm sure many of you will be receiving emails from some of your friends who were there as well...and you'll probably be bombarded with their own personal stories.

The movie was in a rough cut version... but still I thought a very finished state,...special effects had not been added yet, nor was the music complete....still it brought uncontrollable weeping from everyone. I couldn't stop crying through the whole movie. And when the movie was over, there was complete silence in the church. I wanted the story to go on and on...for another two hours.... I think the movie was about 2 hours long. It got started late, like around 7:30, and the next time I looked at my watch it was 10:30... so I actually don't even remember. There was a question and answer time with Mel Gibson himself, so who cared what time it was.

Every moment of the movie was captivating,..breathtaking....still, there are no words. The beating and suffering of Christ was almost unbearable to watch. The scenes with flashbacks of Jesus when he was a little boy and a scene of his mother running to comfort him and then cradling him in her arms after he had fallen down about the age of 4 or 5.....was interlaced with scenes of him falling to the ground carrying his own cross, so bloody and unrecognizable...and then her holding him in her arms after he had been taken down from the cross. Her face then stared into the camera while she was holding him...and you could just imagine the things she was thinking. Every parent who was seated near me ... fell apart.

The nails being hammered into his hands was the most real thing I had ever seen. One scene of Jesus and the interaction with his mother...just reminded me of every 20-year old man/child and mom relationship. Where she's trying to get him to come to eat...and has to remind him to wash his hands before eating...she brings water to wash his hands..and after washing, he gently splashes water on his mother..but then wraps his arms around her and kisses her on the cheek....and takes off running to the food.. I don't know..it just reminded me of something my 15 year old would do to me..... And the thought of one of my boys going through that, just made me want to die inside...

There was a question and answer period last night with Mel himself. We had heard rumors that he's been showing up to these screenings. I got brave enough to put my hand up and ask a question about the miracles that we had heard about, on the set. And he began to talk about so many I couldn't really keep track. I remember hearing about one of the actors being hit by lightning twice yet walking away from it..with only smoking fingertips, healings , conversions on the set,..but I especially remember him talking about a Two-year old child's, hearing and sight being restored...and he said..."you know you can't fake that when you're two. So we know it was real."

He was asked about Spiritual warfare on the set...and he just laughingly said..."Oh yeah..just being in Italy alone was enough warfare,..but he said it was intense.

He said that the bad press surrounding the movie..is just a few small pressure groups that are causing all the noise. But seem to have the loudest mouths. And that became the reason for having these small private screenings..is to get the word out and to start a grass roots campaign into a swell. WOW....that sounds familiar. We all get the chance to be Christ's disciples all over again, in a fresh new way...

Ricky Skaggs asked the final question of the night to Mel.....about how we can pray for him, help him, spread the word etc. He said that "prayer was the most powerful thing. And not to pray for all our enemies to have warts grow on their faces, (laughter), but to pray for our warring angels to fight against satan's angels, because the people don't know any better, they are clueless...and they are just being used by satan."

It was mentioned to everyone in the crowd who were artists, press folks, radio..and such..anyone who had a website...to get on a mailing list and sign up. That they would be sending links, so that everyone could put it on their websites,...there would be movie trailers that artists could take on tour with them, show at concerts....any type of promo material on product tables etc.

They passed out a poster flyer last night as we left...and the official website address is

http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com

This is the address they have on all promo materials for the movie.

It was a little easier to see the trailer on this site....as it was equipped for all computers video capabilities. You can go to this website and register to find out more info on how to help. This other site that is listed will just give you more info on press stuff and more press on the miracles that happened.

http://www.passion-movie.com (fan site)

The movie comes out February 25, 2004.. Ash Wednesday...in theaters nationwide. And the movie's official title is "The Passion of the Christ."

Mel said that he spent 35 million of his own money to make this movie.

Mel is a man of the word! He knows the Bible..and is a sold-out believer. He said that this movie has been his passion for the past 12 years....just 3 years ago did the Lord begin to give him landmark signs that now was the time to start filming the movie. He mentioned some of them...but one that stuck in my mind, was him saying that some random little old lady in France I think...came up to him and said something to him that nobody could've known, I don't know what she said to him..but he said the signs to get started on it, were unmistakable.

Ok....well...I know that I am changed...and I pray that what I saw will be etched on my brain forever...and Lord, help me to never forget the price you paid for us all. Whenever I begin to argue, or complain....shut my mouth Lord. And help us all to remember,...we are not home yet...that heaven awaits all of us who believe in Him....and that we all have a part to play, a heart to share, a burden to carry...and a story of love and hope to spread....

Thank you for the cross LORD! Make it a point to take your entire family to this movie!!!!

[dsc]

I found a treasure trove of related articles here:

http://www.seethepassion.com/news.php?page=2

and refreshed my memory.

The sequence of events looks like this:

On December 18, Peggy Noonan reported, "Pope John Paul II saw the movie the weekend before last, in the Vatican, apparently in his private rooms, on a television, with a DVD, and accompanied by his closest friend, Msgr. Stanislaw Dziwisz. Afterwards and with an eloquent economy John Paul shared with Msgr. Dziwisz his verdict. Dziwisz, the following Monday, shared John Paul's five-word response with the co-producer of The Passion, Steve McEveety. This is what the pope said: "It is as it was."

Then, apparently on January 19, "...the Catholic News Service, an arm of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, reported that the pope "never" made such a statement. CNS quoted the pope's longtime personal secretary, Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz. The Holy Father told no one his opinion of this film," the archbishop told CNS. But Steve McEveety, the film's co-producer, and Jan Michelini, its assistant director, said they met Archbishop Dziwisz after the papal viewing. Dziwisz told them the pope simply commented, "It is as it was."

Looks to me like somebody's fibbing here.

Let me ask you this: would you make up something and attribute it to the Pope, knowing you could be given the lie so easily?

CNS and the USCCB are known prevaricators. That's the first place I'd focus in looking for the flaming underwear.

"The sole source for the claim that the Pope commented positively on the movie is the movie's producer and assistant director. Certainly they would be considered Gibson's "people."

I think that's rather arbitrary. It looks like it boils down to whether Msgr. Dziwisz told co-producer Steve McEveety that the Holy Father said, "It is as it was," or not, and, if so, whether the Msgr. was telling the truth.

Msgr. Dziwisz is our sole source for what the Holy Father said. McEveety wasn't there.

McEveety is our first source for what Msgr. Dziwisz said, and is contradicted only by the dishonest slime at CNS.

In the absence of indications that McEveety is either (a) mentally ill; or (b) stupid as a box of dirt, I find it difficult to assign a high probability to the proposition that he is the liar here.

You are partially correct in saying that McEveety is responsible for the reported remark becoming public, in that he told people about it.

Actually, I rather think I would too, under similar circumstances. I'd be deeply honored if such a thing were said about a project I'd worked on.

That said, I still dispute that either Mr. Gibson or his people have flacked that remark in inappropriate ways.

[drjimmy]

Let me ask you this: would you make up something and attribute it to the Pope, knowing you could be given the lie so easily?
While you obviously hold no truck with the CNS or USCCB, consider applying your standard to their report. Their quote from the archbishop is much longer than five words, so they cannot be the ones who are fibbing or they would be easily be shown to be liars by the archbishop.

So we are left with either the archbishop being a liar--either then or now--or the film's producer and assistant director being a liar. Or the other possibility, which may be that there was a misunderstanding. Maybe the archbishop did say something to the film people that sounded to them like he was quoting the Pope as saying "It is as it was." Maybe it's the Pope's version of "Rosebud"! Since Gibson's spokesman says there is "correspondence" that supports his side's version, it would seem to behoove him to release the contents of that correspondence.

[dsc]

"...consider applying your standard to their report. Their quote from the archbishop is much longer than five words, so they cannot be the ones who are fibbing or they would be easily be shown to be liars by the archbishop."

I don't see how the length of a statement is necessarily correlated with its veracity.

"So we are left with either the archbishop being a liar--either then or now--or the film's producer and assistant director being a liar. Or the other possibility, which may be that there was a misunderstanding."

And there is still another possibility. It could be that the Msgr. was doing what I earlier alleged--weasel wording with the term "declaration," actually saying that the Holy Father made no such official "declaration" without actually coming out and denying that he ever uttered the words, and the CNS people misrepresented it as an outright denial.

"Since Gibson's spokesman says there is "correspondence" that supports his side's version, it would seem to behoove him to release the contents of that correspondence."

Yes, I quite agree. Of course, I would then expect the CNS to call it a forgery.

[veronica]

Which brings me to my final point: you wrote, "...Gibson and his people claim." I've seen people who don't work for him writing about it, but nothing from him or his people. Have you?

The supposed quote from the Pope appears at the movie's official website, in reviews, etc.

[drjimmy]

My point about the length of the statement was that it would be (in my opinion) more difficult to simply make up--and therefore easier to then refute--a lengthier quote from the archbishop than a shorter quote. The CNS quote, I thought, was a lot less ambiguous than "It is as it was." Perhaps I wasn't giving the Vatican enough credit(?) to come up with its own slant on Clinton's "It depends on what the meaning of "is" is, and the word "declaration" is part of the obfuscation. Even if that is the case, I think that CNS interpreted it in exactly the way the Vatican wanted the word to be interpreted.

Of course, I would then expect the CNS to call it a forgery.
As you can see from this thread, you aren't far off the mark. It isn't CNS that is calling some of the correspondence a forgery, however, it is the Pope's own official spokesman (at least according to Peggy Noonan, who seems to trust her source for this). They say that the Lord moves in mysterious ways, but this is getting ridiculous!