U.S. Welcomes Taiwan's Changed Referendum

Yahoo News ^ | 1/16/04 | AP - Washington

[NormsRevenge]

WASHINGTON - The White House appeared satisfied Friday with the new, toned-down language that Taiwan's leader announced for a planned March 20 referendum.

Originally, Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, had pushed for a strongly worded, China-bashing vote demanding the communist giant withdraw nearly 500 missiles aimed at Taiwan.

But with Washington fearing an upset of the delicate balance in the Taiwan Strait, that language prompted President Bush (news - web sites) to express serious concerns. Though Bush didn't specifically oppose the referendum, he warned that he opposed "any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo." The rebuke was considered especially sharp, partly because it was delivered as China's new premier, Wen Jiabao, sat by his side in the White House.

On Friday, Chen announced official, two-part ballot language that makes the referendum more of a policy vote than a protest directed at China. The referendum will ask voters whether Taiwan should purchase more advanced anti-missile weapons if China doesn't redeploy its missiles and renounce the use of force against Taiwan, and if the Taiwan government should negotiate with China.

"We certainly welcome any statements that confirm Taiwan's commitment to the status quo now and in the years ahead," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

McClellan said the Bush administration neither opposes nor endorses the referendum.

But, he added: "We understand, however, that there would be no relationship between the outcome of the proposed referendum and Taiwan's commitment to the status quo."

Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) said he was examining Chen's statements and could not say if he was satisfied with them. But he said: "I think President Chen has shown a little flexibility in the way those two questions have been worded."

Citing Bush's opposition to unilateral actions by either Taiwan or China, Powell said Chen "knows very clearly what our position is with respect to any move toward independence. He knows very clearly what our position is with respect to how the reconciliation between the two sides ultimately must take place."

[risk]

"We certainly welcome any statements that confirm Taiwan's commitment to the status quo now and in the years ahead," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

Isn't there something similar here to the way America treats Israel?

[goldstategop]

Yep. Taiwan isn't permitted to proclaim its independence cause that would upset the ChiComs.

[risk]

We wouldn't want anyone upset, now would we? I mean the ChiCom "street" is armed with nukes and all.

[Conservative til I die]

Good to see us standing fully behind the cause of freedom. Not. Maybe we should stop treating Taiwan like our personal bitch.

[Magnum44]

Didn't we have this same discussion recently?

I won't rehash the argument, but I'll simply ask, since you don't appreciate the president considering the impact of a war between the PRC and TWN on AMERICAN lives, what role will you be playing in that conflict? Having served active duty for 12 years and as a reservist for 8 now, I do not look forward to another opportunity to leave my family for months to years because you don't understand diplomacy. What do you 'risk' by condoning antagonizing the PRC?

[risk]

I'll simply ask, since you don't appreciate the president considering the impact of a war between the PRC and TWN on AMERICAN lives, what role will you be playing in that conflict? Having served active duty for 12 years and as a reservist for 8 now, I do not look forward to another opportunity to leave my family for months to years because you don't understand diplomacy.

Then you really don't want to know my opinions about the situation. But if you think there will be peace because of our especially subtle and longsuffering diplomatic patience with the PRC, then I have good grounds to prove that you'd be historically wrong. Appeasement doesn't work. Never has, never will. If you'd rather not fight, make sure the fascists now in power in China understand that very well -- right up front. Then watch how quickly they move into the vacuum.

Peace in our time? I doubt it. And don't ask me what I'd give to free the Taiwanese people from this scourge. It's none of your business. But I happen to know a veteran with a purple heart who has chunks of flak sitting on his mantel who says we should stand up to China over this Taiwan situation.

Pull some flak out of your flesh and then maybe I'll be willing to listen to your pleading for "diplomacy." But you still won't convince me. I know people who've worked in Chinese retraining camps 12 years forced labor because they weren't farmers when the red armbanded thugs came through their campus. You can't appease goons like that. All they understand is the barrel of a gun.

[Magnum44]

Typical. You don't answer the question. You repeat your already well known opinion. Thats a response I expect from a lib, not a conservative. I would like to give a conservative more credit for defending his position. Don't disappoint me.

Last time I looked, TWN is free. Its our national challenge to maintain that with spilling the blood of thousands of AMERICANS in the process. I work to that end. I ask again, what do you 'risk'?

[Magnum44]

Its our national challenge to maintain that with spilling the blood of thousands of AMERICANS ...

should read:

Its our national challenge to maintain that WITHOUT spilling the blood of thousands of AMERICANS

[Dr. Marten]

"Having served active duty for 12 years and as a reservist for 8 now, I do not look forward to another opportunity to leave my family for months to years because you don't understand diplomacy"

With all due respect, if you dont like the idea of having to leave your family, you shouldn't have signed up in the first place. I have served as well and though I have no desire to go back to work for the government, I would not think twice about diving back into the ranks if the US would stand up and put China in its place.

Diplomacy is not the answer to everything, especially when dealing with the CCP. However, I wont go into that because clearly you dont understand how the Chinese think and work.

I appreciate your service, but that does not mean you are an expert in interntional relations.

[Dr. Marten]

Im not saying that I competely understand every move that the CCP makes, but with China being the focus of my degree in International Relations, I do have a pretty good idea.

[Magnum44]

I wont go into that because clearly you dont understand how the Chinese think and work.

I appreciate your service, but that does not mean you are an expert in interntional relations.

I, and the rest like me, volunteer for my nations service because I put faith in our leadership that our lives will be risked only when our nations security calls for it, and that leadership will do everything it can to make that option its option of LAST resort.

And, sorry, but a degree in international relations, does not make you any more qualified than I to comment on this subject. Among other things, my reserve work takes me to work for USPACOM, the area Commander directly responsible to SECDEF for any response should something break out in the TWN theatre. I think I am clearly qualified to discuss how the Chinese think and work. You are arrogant to think otherwise.

[risk]

I ask again, what do you 'risk'?

Since we've discussed this in the past, I've already answered that question before, haven't I? I'll repeat it for you, since you want to bring it up again: Chinese ICBMs are aimed at me and you both. Not only that, but the nuclear proliferation they have encouraged may come home to a city year either of us in the form of a DPRK missile or a terrorist nuclear detonation.

Now is not the time to go soft on the PRC. These incursions on our safety were begun in hopes that Americans wouldn't respond.

[Magnum44]

Russian nukes were aimed at us for 40 years. Did you advocate going to war with the USSR, or do you not agree that the Cold War ultimately was a victory for us? Would you claim we went soft when we challenged the soviets in the cold war since we did not actually fight them?

Just asking. And you still have nothing personal at risk in a PRC/TWN conflict, except maybe your 401k value, do you? If asked I will leave my family behind, but don't consider my life or my family time expendable.

[Dr. Marten]

"And, sorry, but a degree in international relations, does not make you any more qualified than I to comment on this subject."

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but if you will read my second comment a little more carefully you will see that I did not claim to be an expert. I simply saidimplied that my studies in international relations with focus on China does give me some added insight. Not to mention the time I have spent and continue to spend there.

" I think I am clearly qualified to discuss how the Chinese think and work."

Really? How much time have you spent in China studying Chinese history, culture and politics?

If anything, being a US government employee (particularly the military) seriously hampers your ability to really understand the Chinese from within, which is something I dont even claim to be able to fully do myself and I am married to one.

If anyone is arrogant sir, it is you. You are the one claiming that the others on this thread have no idea about how diplomacy works....

[risk]

Did you advocate going to war with the USSR...?

You're assuming that I have advocated going to war with the PRC? Nowhere have I suggested preemptively striking the PRC. I've simply said that if the Taiwanese wish to declare their independence from the PRC, they have a right to do that without pressure from us. It may present us with a dilemma, but what did we expect? These are free people (so far) as you've mentioned. How can we restrain their viable expression of political will? You present us with false dichotomies, and I'm not taking any of them

What is your stand on missile defense, by the way?

[risk]

If anything, being a US government employee (particularly the military) seriously hampers your ability to really understand the Chinese from within, ...

Not only that, but I suspect he's out of line for even admitting his role in our defense establishment on an international forum. That is if we can believe what he says.

[Dr. Marten]

"he's out of line for even admitting his role in our defense establishment on an international forum"

Loose lips sink ships....

[Magnum44]

You're assuming that I have advocated going to war with the PRC? Nowhere have I suggested preemptively striking the PRC. I've simply said that if the Taiwanese wish to declare their independence from the PRC, they have a right to do that without pressure from us.

I have tried to educate in the past. Let me try again, the PRC has clearly stated that a declaration of independence from TWN is an act they will would consider as grounds for going to war. The US has a vital interest in TWN, economically and strategically. It is not in US interest to have an armed conflict break out between PRC and TWN, get it? NOT IN OUR INTEREST! We ARE exercising OUR INTERESTS.

I am not at liberty to discuss what our responses would or would not be, but folks who have nothing personal at stake in a poker game should not pester those in the game with money on the table. Ask questions if you like, state you opinion if you like, but realize your not the one who may lose BIG TIME if your hand is tipped early.

[Magnum44]

You are the one claiming that the others on this thread have no idea about how diplomacy works....

No sir. I am claiming that other here do not think the president has the right to exercise diplomacy in place of bravado.