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Thousands of Pilots Won't Fly Armed, Blame TSA
CNSNews.com ^ | January 15, 2004 | Jeff Johnson

Posted on 01/15/2004 7:29:05 AM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird

(CNSNews.com) - The federal agency charged with providing security for U.S. airlines, and the airlines themselves are intentionally sabotaging the congressionally-mandated program to train and certify pilots who volunteer to carry guns in the cockpit, according to supporters of the program who claim tens of thousands of pilots have opted out s a result.

Pilots with knowledge of the Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO), or "armed pilots" program tell CNSNews.com that the manner in which the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) requires FFDOs to carry their weapons not only discourages participation, but also renders them defenseless against potential terrorist attacks when they are most vulnerable. The pilots also complain that TSA has issued a "thinly veiled threat" to disclose personal information discovered during background investigations and subjective results of psychological evaluations in an attempt to further discourage pilots from volunteering for the program.

The U.S. House passed the Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act by a vote of 310 to 113 in July of 2002. The proposal became law Nov. 22, 2002, as part of the Homeland Security Act of 2002

An FFDO, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told CNSNews.com in an exclusive interview that the TSA is "not pursuing [the armed pilots program] with any sense of urgency."

"The TSA has designed the program to deter participation and they're being successful," the FFDO said. "The program should be a large program so that it can be an effective deterrent and, because it is not as large as it should be, it is not the deterrent that it should be."

Capt. Dave Mackett, a commercial airline pilot and vice president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance (APSA), said actual enrollment in the program speaks volumes about TSA's performance, or lack thereof. He said nearly 40,000 certified pilots initially signed up with his organization, indicating their interest in serving as Federal Flight Deck Officers. But now, Mackett says, there are "only a few thousand volunteers" registered with TSA.

"As a result of the program's attributes -- the way the TSA designed the program -- roughly 88 to 90 percent of the original pilots who expressed an interest changed their minds," Mackett explained.

Chris Rhatigan, a spokeswoman for TSA, initially offered to comment on the allegations reported in the CNSNews.com investigation of the FFDO program, with some restrictions.

"I'm not going to respond to those types of statements," Rhatigan said when asked about specific allegations that are reported in the article. "I can respond to your specific questions about the program, how it's operated, what it's doing. But, as far as going back and forth like that, I'm not going to be able to participate"

Rhatigan was asked how many of the 40,000 pilots, who had originally registered with APSA, had formally volunteered for the FFDO program, but declined to answer.

Method of carrying weapon blamed for most pilots' decision to withdraw

One FFDO, who agreed to comment on the "carry protocol" for armed pilots' handguns only if CNSNews.com did not disclose the person's identity, said the regulation is "designed to deter participation."

"A lot of my coworkers have watched what I go through and they say, 'You know what? I'm not signing up,'" the FFDO explained.

The FFDO also believes such comments are the result TSA desires. "I've had so many pilots tell me, 'I'm not signing up for this. I'm not putting myself through this kind of agony to go through what you go through.'

"That is the thing that's really deterring participation," the FFDO added.

As CNSNews.com previously reported, the TSA requires FFDOs to be essentially disarmed anytime they are outside the cockpit of their aircraft.

"The jurisdiction of use of the weapon is in the cockpit and the cockpit only. They are called 'Federal Flight Deck Officers,'" explained Heather Rosenker, a spokeswoman for TSA in a February 2003 interview. "If somebody tries to intervene [sic] into the cockpit of that aircraft, [FFDOs] have the right to use their weapon."

Asked if there were no other circumstances under which a pilot would be justified in using the weapon, Rosenker replied, "That's correct."

Unless the pilot is behind the locked cockpit door, TSA requires that the weapon be holstered, locked inside a hard-sided gun case and stored inside "a bag that is non-descript."

The policy leaves pilots defenseless during the time when law enforcement and security experts agree that the cockpit is most vulnerable.

"The weapon needs to be re-secured in the locked box if the cockpit door is open," Rosenker explained, acknowledging that the regulation would include times during flights when one of the pilots leaves the cockpit to use the restroom or get food.

Dean Roberts, a former federal law enforcement officer and pilot, now flies for a commercial passenger airline. He told CNSNews.com that even some pilots with federal law enforcement experience would not apply for the FFDO program because of the lock box requirement.

"I know of, there are five in my crew base alone that are all graduates of FLETC (the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) or graduates of the FBI Academy who have no intention of putting in paperwork to go to this," Roberts said.

"When I carried a gun as a federal law enforcement officer on an airplane, it was a hassle carrying a gun [on board]," Roberts explained. "The FFDO program has got about 20 more unnecessary steps in the process that make it more hassle than it is worth."

TSA's policy allegedly causing guns to be lost, could facilitate robberies

One pilot, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the risk of a handgun carried inside a lock box, inside another piece of luggage, being stolen from an FFDO or taken by force should be obvious.

"Criminals know that [some] pilots carry guns in lock boxes and those guns are not available to the pilots," said the aviator who also has a background in federal law enforcement. "TSA has set up every FFDO to be the victim of an armed robbery to get their gun."

Commercial airline captains and first officers, the pilot noted, are required to travel between terminals and distant employee parking lots at all hours of the day and night, often with little or no security. Because an FFDO's handgun is sealed inside the lock box, which is carried inside another piece of luggage, the CNSNews.com source said it would be impossible for the "armed" pilot to use it to defend against one or more attackers.

The FFDO policies and procedures also forbid pilots from carrying their lock boxes inside the passenger compartment of a plane unless they are the assigned captain or first officer for that particular flight. As a result, pilots who are "deadheading," or flying as passengers to or from an assignment, must place their firearm lock boxes into the cargo hold of the aircraft.

Roberts, who previously worked as a special agent and pilot for both the U.S. Customs Service and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), is a graduate of both the FBI Academy and FLETC. He said that while baggage handlers are not supposed to touch the lock boxes belonging to deadheading FFDOs, the lock boxes frequently get mixed with the luggage of other passengers.

"[FFDOs] go down to pick up the gun from a trip and it's already whisked off to baggage claim," Roberts explained. "It happens several times a day, more than once.

"Pilots go down to get the gun and the baggage handlers have already been in the belly [and] unloaded it and the gun is on its way to baggage claim," Roberts elaborated. "The FFDOs then have to get back up into the airplane, go down out of the terminal, down to baggage claim and hopefully find their gun on the carousel."

TSA's Rhatigan was asked how many times deadheading FFDOs had reported such incidents to TSA.

"I don't have access to that information to share with you at this time and I'm going to conclude this interview," Rhatigan responded. "I'm going to refer this up to Mark Hatfield the director of communications here and see if he has somebody he'd like to have you talk to."

Despite having refused such an offer during the initial interview, Rhatigan later called back to request that CNSNews.com submit a list of questions for TSA to consider. That list was submitted Tuesday evening. Wednesday morning, TSA was reminded of and acknowledged the reporter's Wednesday afternoon deadline. More than 24-hours after initially being contacted, however, TSA had provided no further response.

An FFDO who agreed to talk to CNSNews.com confirmed Roberts' claim on background but did not wish to be quoted on the issue, fearing reprisals for violating TSA's prohibition on FFDOs disclosing any flaws with the program to anyone other than TSA management.

Despite Roberts' extensive firearms training background and federal law enforcement experience, he was expelled from FFDO training on the last day of classes. He believes challenging the lock box and other TSA policies that are contrary to standard law enforcement procedures led to his dismissal.

"If you got pushy and demanded some answers and called them on their double-speak," Roberts speculated, "[TSA managers] said, 'Well, you've got to go. You're a troublemaker.'"

TSA accused of discouraging participation before program's official launch

APSA says TSA tried to discourage pilots from volunteering for the FFDO program even before the program officially began ... Read Part Two


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TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: airlines; airlinesecurity; armedpilots; bang; banglist; dhs; ffdo; gun; guncontrol; guns; pilot; sabotage; tsa
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The TSA has designed the program to deter participation...

Typical liberal government agencies. If you don't like the law that congress passed, that you MUST implement and let people follow, make it impossible to follow it.

1 posted on 01/15/2004 7:29:05 AM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Unfortunately, the airline pilot unions are actively urging their members to vote against Pres. Bush in the upcoming election. I go to church with a pilot and he supports the president, although he agrees with some of the problems the union has with him.
2 posted on 01/15/2004 7:34:43 AM PST by twigs
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
TSA is a joke, they solve nothing, they have stopped HOW MANY terrorist incidents? They have allowed HOW MANY weapons on planes? They have inconvenienced and violated the rights of HOW MANY million travelers? They are not law enforcement, they are not armed, they are not about to allow anyone with any authority (or common sense) to travel armed. T.S.A.= Thousands Standing Around
3 posted on 01/15/2004 7:37:16 AM PST by Probus (Rehabilitation?)
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To: Probus
They are union. Need I say more?
4 posted on 01/15/2004 7:41:58 AM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Ah heck, just fly in a private airplane and you can carry all the weapons you want.

Private pilots are not allowed to charge money for their services, but they are permitted to share expenses.

In other words, if you pay for the airplane, gas and other costs, a private pilot is allowed to fly you to your destination.

No TSA security hassles. No long drives to a hub airport and being forced to pay outrageous parking fees.

Make friends with a local pilot and learn how to enjoy flying once again.

5 posted on 01/15/2004 7:42:34 AM PST by Hunble
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To: Hunble
A man after my own heart. I just can't wait until I can get my Zenith 601 or 701. I still can't figure out which one to buy.
6 posted on 01/15/2004 7:48:04 AM PST by U S Army EOD (Volunteer for EOD and you will never have to worry about getting wounded.)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Trust pilots with the lives of a few hundred passengers with an aircraft but not a handgun?
Considering that most of these guys are current or former military as well many fighter or bomber pilots....
The federal govt. running a program like run all their programs...100% SNAFU
7 posted on 01/15/2004 7:52:32 AM PST by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: joesnuffy
To me, saying that it is SNAFU would indicate that they didn't intend it to be AFU in the first place. I believe the proper term for the TSA and the program for arming pilots is FUBAR.

Our government has turned into this evil beast that does nothing but protect its own power and authority. Actually empowering pilots to responsibly take some responsibility for the passenger's safety is too similar to actually arming one of the sheep.

I think the message that should be taken from this article is that you are merely to sit down, shut up, and don't complain. After all, you're just a peasant. You don't count except when they extract cash from your paycheck.

8 posted on 01/15/2004 8:00:35 AM PST by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over.)
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To: *bang_list
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
9 posted on 01/15/2004 8:03:53 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Sounds like the TSA needs a new boss.
10 posted on 01/15/2004 8:10:22 AM PST by rogator
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To: zeugma
Irecent had to take some basic TSA terrorism protective training due to my job. The thrust of the parts that dealt with actual conrontation with terrorists including kidnappers was 'do nothing' you are not a officially trained 'law enforcement' person (by TSA definition) and don't have sense enogh to do anything useful. Allow yourself to be kidnapped or held hostage because the 'certified terror fighters' will come and rescue you.
Based on what has happened to people who have been kidnapped by terrorists my comments were that being killed was preferable and there is no reason to think the US gov will ever find you in one piece anyway. Abosule passivity by all 'civilians' is the goal of certainly most fed gov law enforcemnt types.
11 posted on 01/15/2004 8:12:06 AM PST by robowombat
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
The head of TSA serves at the pleasure of the President, who could easily fire him for this state of affairs. We can lay responsibility for this state of affairs at the feet of the President.
12 posted on 01/15/2004 8:13:23 AM PST by gaijin
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To: U S Army EOD
After looking at the Zenith 601, it is obvious that you want speed. Go for the faster aircraft.

Personally, I rent a Piper Warrior when I need the speed for travel to a specific destination.

For enjoyment, I like things low and slow! My home built airplane is the Challenger II. Maximum speed is 100 and a stall speed of only 18. One of the very few aircraft with a 4:1 speed envelope.

This is the difference between a dirt-bike and a Harley motorcycle. Each type of motorcycle is designed for a specific usage. A Harley, when driven on a dirt or gravel road, is down right scary!

Identify the type of flying that you enjoy. If your primary purpose if to fly long distances, then get the fastest aircraft that you can afford.

If you just enjoy flying for the sake of flying, think about something that performs like a WWI fighter. Those are fun airplanes to fly, but often painful for long distances.

For me, I chose the Challenger II because of it's gliding abilities. Shut down the engine and ride the thermals for a few hours. When tired, fire up that engine and fly home.

With a stall speed of only 18, can you imagine the short fields that I can land in? There is no such thing as not being able to find an emergency landing spot. Give me a little headwind, and I could land in someone's driveway.

At the company that I work for, we have a Piper Navajo and two Piper Saratoga for aerial photography. For this application, we need speed.

Identify what you enjoy most about flying first!

13 posted on 01/15/2004 8:16:33 AM PST by Hunble
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Good post! this is a problem. IMHO I fully support armed sky marshals.....in the back with the pax , where the shooting(God forbid if any) will occur. My disagreement with arming pilots is this....Who is going to fly the airplane??? We are forgetting the #1 rule every single aviator of any type learns in case of emergency.......FLY THE AIRPLANE.
14 posted on 01/15/2004 8:22:44 AM PST by JETDRVR
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To: gaijin
We can lay responsibility for this state of affairs at the feet of the President.

Oops... you forgot: (This ad bought and paid for by the Dean For President Committee)

15 posted on 01/15/2004 8:23:58 AM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: robowombat
An airliner with well armed citizens aboard would make the possibility of a terrorist obtaining control of the aircraft simply impossible.

The TSA is nothing but a joke. Totally useless and they will never be able to achieve their designated tasks, because the are dis-arming the wrong people.

If anything, the TSA is placing American citizens into a deadly situation, since they are unable to protect themselves.

Have you ever purchased a ceramic kitchen knife?

16 posted on 01/15/2004 8:25:06 AM PST by Hunble
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To: JETDRVR
Who is going to fly the airplane???

We've pregressed quite a bit since the 1940's when the pilot had to have his hands on the control stick at all times. Now we have such things as autopilot as well as multiple people in the cockpit, all of them capable of taking control of the plane if they had to.

17 posted on 01/15/2004 8:28:05 AM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: Hunble
Soon I will be in a position to where I have nothing left to spend money on except airplanes. I have some minor heart problems so I will have to go the sports pilot route. I plan to go to Zenith and fly both airplanes. The Zenith 701 seems to be the most fun to fly especially with its short take off and landing. But yes you are right, there is almost 50 mph between their crusing speeds. I have access to four landing fields and a free hanger within six miles of where I live. I am thinking buy a 701 and then start working on the 601. Just have both. Most of my trips will be less than 100 miles the first year or two. I don't think there would be much actual difference in the flying time between these two as from the time you took off to you completed the trip. Over 100 miles, the 601 would be the plane of choice.
18 posted on 01/15/2004 8:31:32 AM PST by U S Army EOD (Volunteer for EOD and you will never have to worry about getting wounded.)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Do they still need a pilot in a modern airliner?

Ok, for the taxiing between the runway and the loading gate, they are still needed.

Today, the better airliners can fly and land on a runway without any assistance from the pilots. In many ways, a modern airline pilot is in the cockpit to simply monitor the computers.

P.S. Please do not tell them that, they think they are important.

19 posted on 01/15/2004 8:33:50 AM PST by Hunble
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
"We've pregressed quite a bit since the 1940's when the pilot had to have his hands on the control stick at all times. Now we have such things as autopilot as well as multiple people in the cockpit, all of them capable of taking control of the plane if they had to."


Uhhhhhhhh sir I do this for a living! Gulfstreams Falcons Citations so yes Im quite familiar with automation on todays aircraft. My point is in a worst case scenario eg: Camel jocks in question manage to kill A. the sky marshals B. both pilots.......arming pilots will only take them away from their primary dutys flying the airplane. We need to solve the more important issue of placing shooters in the back of the acft where they should be!
20 posted on 01/15/2004 8:35:10 AM PST by JETDRVR
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