[finnman69]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-1.html


Videotape from the gun camera of a U.S. Apache helicopter shows two suspected Iraqi insurgents handling what the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon.
ABCNEWS.com

Rules of Engagement
Videotape Shows U.S. Helicopter Crew Firing on Suspected Iraqi Insurgents
By Martha Raddatz
ABCNEWS.com
Jan. 9— Graphic video footage from the gun camera of a U.S. Apache helicopter provides a window into the rules of engagement that often determine life and death in Iraq.


The video, obtained by ABCNEWS, shows grainy images of three Iraqis on the ground handling a long cylindrical object that the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon.
The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

Nighttime Scene

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

When he rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded."

The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing the man.

The Apache fires nearly 100 30 mm cannon rounds in all.


Engagement Called Justified

A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.

Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.

Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."

As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

[TC Rider]

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

When you care enough to send the best.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

I guess we will hear about this from the NY Times!

[Wild Irish Rogue]

' if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops."

And ABC and Peter Jennings have a problem with this ???!!!!

[The KG9 Kid]

It appeared to me that these characters -- Fedayeen/Al-Qaeda diehards, I gather -- were preparing to plant an improvised explosive near a roadside or were perhaps staging weapons in an area for an upcoming attack.

The Geneva Convention does cite engagements that are illegal -- mutilation of bodies, deliberate attacks on individuals with high explosives and so forth, but I recall being instructed that if I were to use my Mk19Mod3 grenade launcher or M2 .50 cal in direct fire against enemy troops that I am really only firing at their material assets: Canteens on their hips, their backpacks, etc.

These dead men were guerillas -- terrorists out of uniform. Looks like a perfectly legal gooping of these guys to me.

In the Marine Corps, I knew a Staff Sergeant who told me that he used a TOW missile against a Lebanese militiaman shortly after 241 Marines were killed in the barracks bombing in Lebanon. They were not permitted to fire on a target of opportunity unless it was 'an armed and/or armored vehicle', but they were angrily awaiting some payback.

... Along comes a Lebanese Hizbollah terrorist riding a ten-speed bicycle toting an RPG over his shoulder at a thousand yards away. The TOW crew radioed for permission and then blew him and his bicycle into orbit. This sergeant swore that the bike flew end over end straight up in the air about thirty stories high. Terrorist went in about ten different directions. Poor bastard never knew what hit him.

Sounds about right.

[Ichneumon]

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

Okay, *which* reporter was stupid enough to actually ask the question which elicited this "acknowledgement"?

I can see it now. "But... isn't it barbaric to kill them with a bigger than necessary weapon? If you're going to kill them, shouldn't you use a weapon that's only as big as absolutely necessary?"

[old school]

"As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men..."

I don't know who the sh*t-for-brains is, who proposed this possibility, but it is apparent that we,(as Americans), have lost so much in the ability of our people to think critically! This is a freakin' war for crying out loud! May God help us!

[doug from upland]

Thanks, guys, for saving Americans. These Iraqis had the choice of cooperating and rebuilding their nation. Sorry, but they got what they deserved.

[TalBlack]

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

"Check in with the operational commander"? SAY! I got an idea! Why don't we REALLY play it safe and get a Lawyer out there to help the guys actually fighting the damn war to know when and who they can shoot! Yeah, thats the ticket! I mean why just go with the Op. Comm.? Dosen't HE have a boss. And doesn't THAT guy have a Boss? And then doesn't THAT guy have a boss? Shouldn't all these people be in on this? I mean some moron of a soldier might make a mistake and shoot a peace-loving Arab or something!

[angkor]

We don't have the entire FLIR vid, but in what we do see here, guy #1 is clearly telling tractor man to get out of the way (you can see tractor man turn to look at the helo), then guy #1 reaches into the tractor for something. AK?

If the tube disposal and other details are in the preceding vid, then clearly these guys are part of the insurgency.

Which brings me way back to Tora Bora, December 2001, which presumably was FLIR-intensive free-fire zone. How (if) did anyone get out? Seems improbable.

FLIR is deployed in several operational modes beyond Blackhawks.

[j_tull]

were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

What, the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch wouldn't do?

[F16Fighter]

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have."

The Janeane Garofalos of the world: "It's so d*mn unfair!"

[Rome2000]

BEEOOOTIFULLL!!!!!!!!

[Publius6961]

As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

There is no obligation in war to risk your own soldiers to make things easier for an enemy engaged in pursuing their version of making the other summbitches dies for their country. If my sons were there I would want it no other way.