Posted on 01/07/2004 7:22:57 AM PST by Sabertooth
Edited on 01/07/2004 10:46:05 AM PST by Lead Moderator. [history]
You may have observed the recent effort in the forum by the Lead Moderator to scrutinize and regulate the Illegal Alien threads, which started over here.
Ive mixed it up a lot on these threads in the two-plus year Ive been at FR, as I have some strong feelings about the subject of Illegal Aliens. While I like to think Ive generally kept my cool, there have certainly been occasions when I havent.
That said, there have been plenty of occasions where Ive attempted to engage sincere posters who did not share my opinions, only to have them jumped on by angry posters who did. In the past Ive made posts on threads and requests by Freepmail requesting that the more aggressive posters cool their jets to mixed results.
Ive also seen posts suggesting that the borders be mined, which I think is stupid, hyperbolic spleen, or posts referring to the President as Jorge Arbusto, which stopped being funny years ago, and is now just antagonistic. It doesnt matter that Vicente Fox once called him that in a friendly fashion, no one on the fence regarding Illegals is going to be persuaded by ad hominem rhetoric.
On the other hand, Ive also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists. When reading their posts, one half-wonders if they arent moles for the L.A. Times.
Their perceptions of bigots, bigots everywhere and posts in that vein have also been toxic to the Illegal Alien threads, and such was often the purpose of their baiting. Success was measured in flame wars, bannings, suspensions, and getting threads nuked or moved to the backroom.
Its been my contention, and Ive made the point to the Moderators on a number of occasions, that moving threads to the backroom only rewarded those who dont want Illegals discussed in this forum, and encouraged their trolling behavior.
Ill stipulate again that my own hands havent always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping. Ill also reveal that about a year or so ago I attempted to organize a call, via Freepmail, for some self-restraint on these threads. Toward that end, I contacted eight fairly high-profile posters, not all of whom were regulars on the Illegal threads, and whose opinions varied widely on the issue, with the idea of some sort of joint letter. The response was uniformly positive, but the details proved to be unwieldy, however, and the effort died on the vine.
Since then I would come and go from the Illegal Alien threads, and observe the ebbs and flows of all of the behavior I saw above.
A few months ago, I took a different tack, and got into a running conversation over my concerns with the Lead Moderator, through Freepmail.
Last week an Illegal Alien thread was moved to the Backroom, in another episode of the process I described above. This irked me a little more than usual, given the imminence of President Bushs announcement of a new direction in immigration policy, and I ranted a little more than usual to the Lead Mod.
He was receptive to some of my criticisms, and decided to try the new approach that is now the matter at hand. He posted his account last night (emphasis added)
To: AllI just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:1) That the timing of this effort was suspicious.
2) That this person feels the actions taken have shifted the emphasis of the forum from conservative oriented to party oriented.
I wanted to share with you my response:
I am being evenhanded on the matter. There have been those on one side of the issue have been warned about personal attacks and baiting. There have been those on the other side who have been warned about the same.That is all.There has been one suspension, of someone who decided he was going to repost things which had been pulled. He has no one to blame but himself.
There has been one banning, of a person who said that there was no way he was going to abide by the way things are going to be. Once again, it was his choice and if he changes his mind he can mail Jim and his account will be restored.
The timing, you can have whatever suspicions you want. The fact is that for months, someone who is mostly on your side of the issue tried to get me to do more on these threads, hating how they get pulled when they turn into flame wars and how they get backroomed when they turn into flame wars. He would point to examples of baiting. He would point to personal attacks. Sometimes I would point out the things going the other way. Finally, he convinced me and I decided to give this approach a try.
To be honest, I think it is hilarious that some think I had some idea that some policy was coming out of the White House. It is good to be thought of as that well connected, I guess, but it sadly has no basis in reality.
I am going to post my reply on the thread. I won't quote your mail or your name, although I will paraphrase it.
Regards, LM
262 posted on 01/06/2004 6:03:37 PM PST by Lead Moderator
So, if its not clear already, the Lead Moderators statements in this post are 100% accurate and legitimate. The timing of this effort was a direct result of my conversation with him, and was not the result of some conspiracy by Free Republic higher-ups, or Karl Rove, or Vicente Fox, or whatever current dark speculation is now popular.
Nor is there any overarching effort to censor a wide-ranging debate on Illegals, as far as Ive seen. In the context of the current effort underway on the Illegal Alien threads, I havent received even the slightest hint that there are subjects that are off limits to me in this regard, nor have I been given the impression that there cant be vigorous debate, and Im hardly a party-liner in this.
Now, Im certain that some will find it to be an abomination that I would cooperate with a Moderator, or he with me, but, as a friend of mine likes to say, there you have it.
As for the results, theyve been a bit mixed so far, in my estimation. Not, however, because the Mods havent made an effort to be evenhanded. Ive seen a few folks I warned to keep cool get swift warning when they didnt, and Ive seen some of the usual baiters get cease and desist orders. Ive seen nothing to indicate that the effort to raise the tone of the debate on the Illegal Aliens isnt sincere.
Are the Mods doing things exactly as Id like? Nope, nor do I expect them to do so. Ive got strong opinions and subjectivities here, so the standard of my assessment is the combined words and deeds of the Mods on these threads to correct all offenders. Things look promising thus far.
However, I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart.
It's bad enough we had to battle Clinton on these issues and that's where you're seeing all this frustration coming from. Fighting a political foe is hard enough.
I don't know what the President is actually going to propose, but I'm willing to keep an open mind about it. We need Mexican labor in menial jobs, but it needs to be regulated. If it's done right (and that remains to be seen), it could cut the flow of illegals coming here to work illegally.
I applaud the efforts of the Lead Moderator and Sabertooth in trying to raise the level of discussion. I'm not sure how optimistic I am about whether it can last, but if enough people watch closely, it's certainly possible.
I am quite confident that whatever is proposed by Bush today will be modified by Congress. Perhaps it will even be totally rejected.
But we have to do something about illegals working here, and it's high time to have a discussion about REALLY doing something. Bush has at least started that.
I'll try to contribute to the discussion, but if it disintegrates into utter hostility by either side, I'll go to Chat and talk about Britney Spears or something.
Not to mention AC-130 gunships and minefields.
As usual, Sabertooth, you're a class act.
America for Americans.
As interested as I am in the FACTS about the immigration issue, I have not read one FR thread on the subject lately.
My emotions are too strung out because a large chunk of my heart is in Baghdad, and I didn't think I could handle the abuse I knew I would get there.
I might just venture out now........
There are many ways to boil a frog.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
~ The Wizard of Oz
The latter seem to be infected with this outrageous conceit that because they are on the side of political correctness, ipso facto theirs is the voice of reason and rationality. They are like the woman who, after slamming the car door on her husband's fingers, waxes righteously indignant over the the stream of profanities that explode from her hapless husband's mouth, "Such language coming from a man your age! Henry, you're making a fool of yourself and embarrassing me and the children!"
Yes, I suppose there is room within these immigration threads for reason-based persuasion one-on-one. That has happened and will continue to happen. But as was also true regarding the campaign finance, Patriot Act, and Medicare prescription drugs debacles, you must also expect bald and loud cries of dismay and anguish. Is there any good that can come of these? I believe there is. I have this hope--perhaps it is a vain hope--that Internet fora such as Free Republic are looked at and considered by policy-makers in Congress and the administration seeking to get a rough sense of the mood of the conservative base. These policy makers are less persuaded by reason (they already believe they are the smartest people on earth) than they are by raw power. In the end, the only raw power these people will take note of is the power of rebellion. If they sense that their proposals and actions are inflaming and driving away a significant portion of their power base, they are more likely to look at other less inflamatory alternatives.
Correction to my immediately preceeding post: I meant paleocon.
I find this implied characterization particularly annoying because it presumes that those of us on the radically anti-illegal alien side of the issue were or are Buchanan supporters. I have never supported Buchanan. Bush was my man. Until now anyway.
You mentioned some posters wanting to mine the border. I know of a number of FReepers who advocate shooting down airliners and private planes that stray across some imaginary line in the sky. There are many other examples of this lynch-mob mentality which is becoming more prevalent on FR recently.
Has Free Republic been successfully infiltrated by the DU crowd, moveon.org, or the American Nazi Party?
Or have some FReepers simply forgotten that we live in a country with a Constitution that guarantees due process of law? - even to people or groups that may not be in favor.
I had thought that the Posting Guidelines here on FR prohibited the advocacy of violence, but on reading them again just now, I see that the only prohibition is against "posting materials promoting violence".
I hope the management will clarify this rule and start cracking down on those wanting to kill this group or nuke that group or cut off Michael Jackon's peylotes or whatever... Frankly, all of this armchair machismo is becoming an embarassment.
Thank you for listening.
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