Posted on 01/07/2004 7:22:57 AM PST by Sabertooth
Edited on 01/07/2004 10:46:05 AM PST by Lead Moderator. [history]
You may have observed the recent effort in the forum by the Lead Moderator to scrutinize and regulate the Illegal Alien threads, which started over here.
I’ve mixed it up a lot on these threads in the two-plus year I’ve been at FR, as I have some strong feelings about the subject of Illegal Aliens. While I like to think I’ve generally kept my cool, there have certainly been occasions when I haven’t.
That said, there have been plenty of occasions where I’ve attempted to engage sincere posters who did not share my opinions, only to have them jumped on by angry posters who did. In the past I’ve made posts on threads and requests by Freepmail requesting that the more aggressive posters cool their jets… to mixed results.
I’ve also seen posts suggesting that the borders be mined, which I think is stupid, hyperbolic spleen, or posts referring to the President as “Jorge Arbusto,” which stopped being funny years ago, and is now just antagonistic. It doesn’t matter that Vicente Fox once called him that in a friendly fashion, no one on the fence regarding Illegals is going to be persuaded by ad hominem rhetoric.
On the other hand, I’ve also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists. When reading their posts, one half-wonders if they aren’t moles for the L.A. Times.
Their perceptions of “bigots, bigots everywhere” and posts in that vein have also been toxic to the Illegal Alien threads, and such was often the purpose of their baiting. Success was measured in flame wars, bannings, suspensions, and getting threads nuked or moved to the backroom.
It’s been my contention, and I’ve made the point to the Moderators on a number of occasions, that moving threads to the backroom only rewarded those who don’t want Illegals discussed in this forum, and encouraged their trolling behavior.
I’ll stipulate again that my own hands haven’t always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping. I’ll also reveal that about a year or so ago I attempted to organize a call, via Freepmail, for some self-restraint on these threads. Toward that end, I contacted eight fairly high-profile posters, not all of whom were regulars on the Illegal threads, and whose opinions varied widely on the issue, with the idea of some sort of joint letter. The response was uniformly positive, but the details proved to be unwieldy, however, and the effort died on the vine.
Since then I would come and go from the Illegal Alien threads, and observe the ebbs and flows of all of the behavior I saw above.
A few months ago, I took a different tack, and got into a running conversation over my concerns with the Lead Moderator, through Freepmail.
Last week an Illegal Alien thread was moved to the Backroom, in another episode of the process I described above. This irked me a little more than usual, given the imminence of President Bush’s announcement of a new direction in immigration policy, and I ranted a little more than usual to the Lead Mod.
He was receptive to some of my criticisms, and decided to try the new approach that is now the matter at hand. He posted his account last night (emphasis added)…
To: AllI just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:1) That the timing of this effort was suspicious.
2) That this person feels the actions taken have shifted the emphasis of the forum from conservative oriented to party oriented.
I wanted to share with you my response:
I am being evenhanded on the matter. There have been those on one side of the issue have been warned about personal attacks and baiting. There have been those on the other side who have been warned about the same.That is all.There has been one suspension, of someone who decided he was going to repost things which had been pulled. He has no one to blame but himself.
There has been one banning, of a person who said that there was no way he was going to abide by the way things are going to be. Once again, it was his choice and if he changes his mind he can mail Jim and his account will be restored.
The timing, you can have whatever suspicions you want. The fact is that for months, someone who is mostly on your side of the issue tried to get me to do more on these threads, hating how they get pulled when they turn into flame wars and how they get backroomed when they turn into flame wars. He would point to examples of baiting. He would point to personal attacks. Sometimes I would point out the things going the other way. Finally, he convinced me and I decided to give this approach a try.
To be honest, I think it is hilarious that some think I had some idea that some policy was coming out of the White House. It is good to be thought of as that well connected, I guess, but it sadly has no basis in reality.
I am going to post my reply on the thread. I won't quote your mail or your name, although I will paraphrase it.
Regards, LM
262 posted on 01/06/2004 6:03:37 PM PST by Lead Moderator
So, if it’s not clear already, the Lead Moderator’s statements in this post are 100% accurate and legitimate. The timing of this effort was a direct result of my conversation with him, and was not the result of some conspiracy by Free Republic higher-ups, or Karl Rove, or Vicente Fox, or whatever current dark speculation is now popular.
Nor is there any overarching effort to censor a wide-ranging debate on Illegals, as far as I’ve seen. In the context of the current effort underway on the Illegal Alien threads, I haven’t received even the slightest hint that there are subjects that are off limits to me in this regard, nor have I been given the impression that there can’t be vigorous debate, and I’m hardly a party-liner in this.
Now, I’m certain that some will find it to be an abomination that I would cooperate with a Moderator, or he with me, but, as a friend of mine likes to say, there you have it.
As for the results, they’ve been a bit mixed so far, in my estimation. Not, however, because the Mods haven’t made an effort to be evenhanded. I’ve seen a few folks I warned to keep cool get swift warning when they didn’t, and I’ve seen some of the usual baiters get cease and desist orders. I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the effort to raise the tone of the debate on the Illegal Aliens isn’t sincere.
Are the Mods doing things exactly as I’d like? Nope, nor do I expect them to do so. I’ve got strong opinions and subjectivities here, so the standard of my assessment is the combined words and deeds of the Mods on these threads to correct all offenders. Things look promising thus far.
However, I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart.
I find this "because it is a crime" to be the most insipid and stupid of all the anti immigration arguments. It used to be okay to consume alchohol, then it was a crime, then it wasn't anymore. The same used to be concerning mexican immigration. It used to be ok, then it was crime, then carter said it wasn't, now it is, and maybe tommorrow it won't be crime anymore.
Before WWII, anyone from europe could legally come to the US while no one from china or japan was allowed to legally immigrate to the US.
Here any chinese entering the US would be a criminal, while almost anyone else would not be.
It is the US history of racist immigration law that makes people suspect that immigration laws of the US are designed to criminalize based on race. Further, it seems that immigration laws can be capricous and arbitrary. It is easy to make illegal immigrants legal, and that is open the borders. Then voila, there are no more criminals.
Go for it. I will be waiting to see tancredo's totals in the november election. And when I see the number of about 1500, I will wondering "what were these goofballs thinking ?".
Your statement taken to its logical conclusion is that you would allow only immigration from england and maybe other european countries. Further, you might even want to decitizenize some citizens that are from "the wrong countries". Since I am of chinese descent, I assume that would include me as an undesirable citizen and probably a candidate for decitizination.
I think I can probably speak for GW here. His words would probably be "BRING IT ON".
What I find bothersome is that I used to think freepers were smart, thoughtful, witty, and funny. These people who actually call for a primary challenge, I view as near idiots. I say that because, it is not going to happen and if it did, it would be an absurd failure.
The absurdity of even thinking it, makes me question their sanity.
So are you a dixie chicks fan ? That is, are you ashamed that Bush is from Texas ?
Context is everything. I am not a part of the dump Bush gang around here.
Does it scare you that folks take on the idea that if you agree with Bush's immigration stance then you can not be a conservative and you may even be a traitor to the US ?
| I've given examples. FAIR, Tancredo, and Malkin. Do you have a hard time comprehending that? Don't those highly vocal examples give you an idea as to who I think "immigration restrictionists" are By the way, I find it interesting that you say you have not claimed I am a disruptor. Post 416 contains a flat-out out accusation that I am attempting to disrupt a thread. Which is it?
|
Things are hanging well. Best of the new year to you.
Is this the famous shut-down-the-discussion-with-rudeness technique?
Intelligent discussion relies on proof and logic, rather than belittling the personality and intellect of your opponent.
Well, you can try to bait me, but it won't work. The fact that small children are being taught Spanish as a second language BEFORE they can even read, spell, or write English is simply not right. Spanish used to be an elective- now it is being forced on public school students.
My opinion was based upon the fact that you've seized on an off-topic item and continued to clutter up this thread with it. I thought Sabertooth's responses were a great attempt to defuse the situation, and wanted to tell him so. I suppose compared to much of the very personal attacks here, your posts are not disruptive.
Regardless of my thoughts, if the Lead Moderator is okay with it, then it would be inappropriate for me to continue further on the topic.
I see a stalemate that is continuing despite the fact that it is getting old. I don't have any great ideas for breaking the stalemate either. I wish they would both reconsider and either accept the stalemate or have one back down, but I don't think that is going to happen, either.
I think it's a problem of longevity. I know there are certain posters that, when they appear on a thread, elicit a *groan* on my part and a "here we go again...". We have such a long history that it's impossible to ignore prior "conversations" (in some cases, more like altercations). I don't have the answer, but I admire your efforts at making a difference. Good luck...
It isn't shocking me that many are skeptical of doing so, although I do wish more would give it a try.
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