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Posted on 01/07/2004 7:22:57 AM PST by Sabertooth
Edited on 01/07/2004 10:46:05 AM PST by Lead Moderator. [history]
You may have observed the recent effort in the forum by the Lead Moderator to scrutinize and regulate the Illegal Alien threads, which started over here.
I’ve mixed it up a lot on these threads in the two-plus year I’ve been at FR, as I have some strong feelings about the subject of Illegal Aliens. While I like to think I’ve generally kept my cool, there have certainly been occasions when I haven’t.
That said, there have been plenty of occasions where I’ve attempted to engage sincere posters who did not share my opinions, only to have them jumped on by angry posters who did. In the past I’ve made posts on threads and requests by Freepmail requesting that the more aggressive posters cool their jets… to mixed results.
I’ve also seen posts suggesting that the borders be mined, which I think is stupid, hyperbolic spleen, or posts referring to the President as “Jorge Arbusto,” which stopped being funny years ago, and is now just antagonistic. It doesn’t matter that Vicente Fox once called him that in a friendly fashion, no one on the fence regarding Illegals is going to be persuaded by ad hominem rhetoric.
On the other hand, I’ve also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists. When reading their posts, one half-wonders if they aren’t moles for the L.A. Times.
Their perceptions of “bigots, bigots everywhere” and posts in that vein have also been toxic to the Illegal Alien threads, and such was often the purpose of their baiting. Success was measured in flame wars, bannings, suspensions, and getting threads nuked or moved to the backroom.
It’s been my contention, and I’ve made the point to the Moderators on a number of occasions, that moving threads to the backroom only rewarded those who don’t want Illegals discussed in this forum, and encouraged their trolling behavior.
I’ll stipulate again that my own hands haven’t always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping. I’ll also reveal that about a year or so ago I attempted to organize a call, via Freepmail, for some self-restraint on these threads. Toward that end, I contacted eight fairly high-profile posters, not all of whom were regulars on the Illegal threads, and whose opinions varied widely on the issue, with the idea of some sort of joint letter. The response was uniformly positive, but the details proved to be unwieldy, however, and the effort died on the vine.
Since then I would come and go from the Illegal Alien threads, and observe the ebbs and flows of all of the behavior I saw above.
A few months ago, I took a different tack, and got into a running conversation over my concerns with the Lead Moderator, through Freepmail.
Last week an Illegal Alien thread was moved to the Backroom, in another episode of the process I described above. This irked me a little more than usual, given the imminence of President Bush’s announcement of a new direction in immigration policy, and I ranted a little more than usual to the Lead Mod.
He was receptive to some of my criticisms, and decided to try the new approach that is now the matter at hand. He posted his account last night (emphasis added)…
To: AllI just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:1) That the timing of this effort was suspicious.
2) That this person feels the actions taken have shifted the emphasis of the forum from conservative oriented to party oriented.
I wanted to share with you my response:
I am being evenhanded on the matter. There have been those on one side of the issue have been warned about personal attacks and baiting. There have been those on the other side who have been warned about the same.That is all.There has been one suspension, of someone who decided he was going to repost things which had been pulled. He has no one to blame but himself.
There has been one banning, of a person who said that there was no way he was going to abide by the way things are going to be. Once again, it was his choice and if he changes his mind he can mail Jim and his account will be restored.
The timing, you can have whatever suspicions you want. The fact is that for months, someone who is mostly on your side of the issue tried to get me to do more on these threads, hating how they get pulled when they turn into flame wars and how they get backroomed when they turn into flame wars. He would point to examples of baiting. He would point to personal attacks. Sometimes I would point out the things going the other way. Finally, he convinced me and I decided to give this approach a try.
To be honest, I think it is hilarious that some think I had some idea that some policy was coming out of the White House. It is good to be thought of as that well connected, I guess, but it sadly has no basis in reality.
I am going to post my reply on the thread. I won't quote your mail or your name, although I will paraphrase it.
Regards, LM
262 posted on 01/06/2004 6:03:37 PM PST by Lead Moderator
So, if it’s not clear already, the Lead Moderator’s statements in this post are 100% accurate and legitimate. The timing of this effort was a direct result of my conversation with him, and was not the result of some conspiracy by Free Republic higher-ups, or Karl Rove, or Vicente Fox, or whatever current dark speculation is now popular.
Nor is there any overarching effort to censor a wide-ranging debate on Illegals, as far as I’ve seen. In the context of the current effort underway on the Illegal Alien threads, I haven’t received even the slightest hint that there are subjects that are off limits to me in this regard, nor have I been given the impression that there can’t be vigorous debate, and I’m hardly a party-liner in this.
Now, I’m certain that some will find it to be an abomination that I would cooperate with a Moderator, or he with me, but, as a friend of mine likes to say, there you have it.
As for the results, they’ve been a bit mixed so far, in my estimation. Not, however, because the Mods haven’t made an effort to be evenhanded. I’ve seen a few folks I warned to keep cool get swift warning when they didn’t, and I’ve seen some of the usual baiters get cease and desist orders. I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the effort to raise the tone of the debate on the Illegal Aliens isn’t sincere.
Are the Mods doing things exactly as I’d like? Nope, nor do I expect them to do so. I’ve got strong opinions and subjectivities here, so the standard of my assessment is the combined words and deeds of the Mods on these threads to correct all offenders. Things look promising thus far.
However, I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart.
Are those '38s?
Photos of him (it?) always trigger gasps of horror in me.
Ouch!
NO thanks, too long. I've read your posts. It wasn't a criticism of you just a minor comment on that one post by sabor.
Well Saber, I see you are dragging flame wars from thread to thread but that's ok. You are the master at passive aggressive instigation. Now if you want to play little girl games after that oh so NOBLE reconciliation thread then I am game but You won't like it.
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Nice try little one but I spent a large part of that thread defending Colin Powell from the race baiters. You on the otherhand spent your time playing your little "i'll hold your coats while you two fight".
This coming from the guy who does more tapdancing than you get in a double feature of Riverdance and Lord of the Dance...
Since you two are the ones making the implication, it is up to you to make the case.
The quote makes the case nicely; hchutch (and now, me) are asking if that is actually acceptable discourse on this issue. Up to this point, nobody was willing to give an honest answer.
No one else is obliged to make a case that is YOUR projection.
I didn't hold a gun to Sam Francis' head and make him write that.
Of course, it's acceptable discourse.
Thank you. Between that statement, and the statement you made and got called on by rdb3 (that you now desperately seek to disown), you've said a lot about yourself.
You're trying to engage in censorship (but you won't admit to that, either), rather than debating Francis.
Censorship is GOVERNMENT prohibition of speech.
Implying that certain positions are "unacceptable discourse" is a dodge, in order to sidestep discourse altogether.
Free Republic disagrees with you on that.
If you are intellectually or morally incapable of debating ideas you disagree with, why do you hang around message boards at all?
I constantly debate ideas I disagree with. You, on the other hand, can't even admit to having said something when called on it.
If you can't own the remarks you posted, why do you hang around here?
(Although I must admit that Trixie and her thread nannies do have a board devoted to conformity and censorship. Perhaps you are a Trixieite.)
Perhaps you should go to a message board that "lets it all hang out, man." Free Republic is not that kind of place. LibertyPost awaits you.
The U.S. Air Force and National Guard have been operating within our boders for many years now. First, the WOD. Now, the WOT. The precedent has been set, and the consensus has been built.
Apparently, most FReepers think this is a great idea, regardless of it's legality. How quickly FReepers have been to toss the Constitution and our body of common law aside when "our guy" got into office. Due process of law? Screw that, we're at war!
From discussions I've had recently, most FReepers are not only willing, but eager for the U.S. military to shoot down any aircraft that stray off it's normal flight path, or loses radio communication. Nevermind that that aircraft has 300 innocent souls on board. Nevermind that the flaming debris will kill hundreds more on the ground. Nevermind that there are hundreds of innocent reasons why an aircraft might stray from it's flight path or lose radio contact.
So to join in the mindless blood lust that has infested FR lately, I propose that we station tanks at intersections in all major cities to destroy any school bus that strays off it's normal route or loses radio contact. Eighteen-wheelers, Ryder trucks and SUVs, too. If any of those deviate from their drive-plan or stray close to a shopping mall, government building, or sports stadium, then they're toast.
Desperate times require desperate measures. We'll never feel truly safe until we do this. Sacrifices must be made; After all, we're at war.
Oh, and I forgot. It's for the children.
And don't forget--we're supposed to nuke Mecca afterwards.
I bet Ike called black people "coloreds" too. What of it? Times change.
I was totally absent from FR on the 7th due to a very ill wife, but I bet you had a busy day!
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