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"Conservatives are patsies to the Republican Party, just like blacks are patsies to the Democratic Party." This is the third straight issue where the President has supported a position opposite of what my mainstream conservative view is: the first being CFR, and most recently the drug benefit bill which will probably cost me several thousand dollars a year more than I pay now by 2006.
1 posted on 01/07/2004 6:06:40 AM PST by shortstop
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To: shortstop
No, I won't vote for Howard Dean or Hitlery Clinton, but I am ready to sit this election out.

The single most valuable thing in this world is US Citizenship. The second most valuable thing in this world is legal US Residency. This Admoinistration is selling both for Votes.

So9

95 posted on 01/07/2004 7:06:26 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
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To: shortstop
This is America...get it right

Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????

Think about it . . .

All I have to say is, when will they do something about MY RIGHTS?  I celebrate Christmas, but because it isn't celebrated by everyone, we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings.  It's not Christmas vacation,
it's Winter Break.  Isn't it amazing how this winter break ALWAYS occurs over the Christmas holiday?  We've gone so far the other way, bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that I am now being offended.  But it seems that no one has a
problem with that.

 This says it all !

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.  Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.  However, the dust from the attacks had
barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about  the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America.  Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have
recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.  As Americans, we have our own culture, our
own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.  This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language.  Therefore, if you wish to become part  of our society, learn the language !

"In God We Trust" is our national motto.  This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.  We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.  It is
certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.  If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture !

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.  We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things
where you came from.  This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle.  Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so.  But once you are done complaining, whining,
and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom...
THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

96 posted on 01/07/2004 7:06:28 AM PST by SheLion (Curiosity killed the cat BUT satisfaction brought her back!!!)
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To: shortstop
I don't support this plan, but I have to say that almost all of the voiced opposition I have seen to it here on FR has been misguided, I think.

His proposal is brilliant except for one flaw.

The brilliance? The part that says anyone wanting to take part in this must get their employer to show no Americans wanted the job.

That will cause the cost of those involved significantly higher. Companies will be forced to show that they tried to find Americans for the job. They will have to be prepared to defend lawsuits from out of work Americans and the ever rabid trial lawyers if they want to rely on these workers. This cost will make it so that the jobs which the people are coming across the border to get won't be there, which removes the incentive for crossing the border, particularly if the benefits only go to those who have jobs and are paying taxes.

Further, for those who do manage to get their employer to vouch that no American wanted the job, so that they can get into the program, we now know who they are and where they are, two things we don't now know, all in exchange for involvement in a program which could be legislated away at any time. Some would be skeptical that it ever would be, but in an economic downturn, ending a guest worker program so Americans could get the jobs would be very politically doable.

And of all the illegals who are out there now, there are some who are harmless and those who are not. Those who sign up for this would more often than not be in the harmless side; they are the ones who really would rather not be hiding and don't mind us knowing they are here. This would make the pool of those who are here completely illegally smaller, which would lessen the burden on our security agencies.

As specified, the proposal is worlds, worlds, worlds better than I had feared based on the initial reports and the initial debate here.

So it is brilliant in that it would put a damper on further illegal immigration, pressure companies to not hire illegals, would get many illegals to tell us who and where they are. I am pretty sure that as this debate rolls on, almost all of the leftist leaning immigration groups are going to come out hot and heavy against these proposals. That should tell us something.

But it has a fatal flaw which means that we really should be opposing it anyway- namely that the courts would very likely find some reason to strike down that one very provision, stating that it is an impossible standard to meet (you know liberal judges). And if that one aspect of the plan is removed, then the whole thing is garbage.

Relying on a single beam of support in a very large structure when there are sledgehammer weilding Judges all over the place is a very bad idea.

99 posted on 01/07/2004 7:10:56 AM PST by William McKinley
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To: shortstop
'Social Security Administration officials estimate that about 50,000 Mexicans would collect $78 million in the first year of a U.S.-Mexican agreement. They predict that by 2050, 300,000 Mexicans would collect $650 million in benefits a year.

But a recent General Accounting Office report said those numbers failed to account for the presence of many potentially eligible, undocumented Mexican immigrants and their families.

Census figures show that the United States is home to 9 million Mexican citizens. More than half, about 5 million, reportedly are in the United States illegally, according to federal estimates.

Barnhart assured lawmakers that undocumented immigrants do not get Social Security benefits.

"That's a myth," she said. "As is the case with our existing agreements, a totalization agreement with Mexico would not alter current law on this issue."

...That's true, but a provision in the Social Security Act allows undocumented immigrants to get Social Security benefits if the United States and another country have a totalization agreement. Those immigrants would have to prove they had paid into the U.S. system.

Former undocumented immigrants also could become eligible if they later become legal residents. A recent investigation ...[only showed TWO cases of that ever happening]

BUT:

'One indication of how large the problem is, experts say, is the ballooning size of the Social Security Administration's suspense fund, money collected from payroll taxes tied either to fake numbers or numbers not matching government records.

In 1990, the fund totaled $1.2 billion. By the end of a decade during which America's undocumented immigrant population doubled and the circulation of fake identity documents surged, that fund topped $6 billion. Since illegal immigrants have no right to SSA benefits, the government will pocket most of the money, experts say.'


So Social Security money is not a problem- we win either way.
Besides real enforcement, any immigration deal should include allowing Americans to own land in Mexico. With telecommuting there are a lot of Americans that would take their dough to Mexico and still keep their US jobs. Providing the middle class that Mexico needs.

100 posted on 01/07/2004 7:11:51 AM PST by mrsmith
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To: shortstop
When this administration determined that to compete with
the European Union -the US must disolve its' national border
and provide the employment for Mexicans (and any other illegal willing to run North of that imaginary line) When
tom ridge said we need to come to grips with 8-12 million
illegals who have allready come and find a way to Make legal--what is Not legal-- My question is when will we
have a government that functions to provide those things
our Declaration of Independence says governments are instituted to do?Clearly what we have now--does not.
106 posted on 01/07/2004 7:19:10 AM PST by StonyBurk
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To: shortstop
Yep and it's increasingly obvious to me that the Republican Party no longer wants my vote or my participation.
107 posted on 01/07/2004 7:21:59 AM PST by Leatherneck_MT (Those who do not accept peaceful change make a violent bloody revolution inevitable.)
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To: shortstop
"Conservatives are patsies to the Republican Party, just like blacks are patsies to the Democratic Party." That is so true!
117 posted on 01/07/2004 7:26:28 AM PST by WhoCountsTheVotes
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To: shortstop
Say It Ain't So, Dubya

Just think, if we got rid of 270 million of the 300 million people living in the United States, we could have at least 10 jobs for every one of the 30 million left to choose from! We'd have more than full employment. And since there would be less people, there would be a whole lot more money to go around and we could all make many, many times more than we do right now!
129 posted on 01/07/2004 7:40:29 AM PST by aruanan
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To: shortstop
When will it end??? Not into YOU, my fellow Freepers, make it happen. Our only hope is to show them we will not tolerate endless compromise.

"And what country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?"

--Thomas Jefferson

132 posted on 01/07/2004 7:41:55 AM PST by Capitalism2003 (Got principles? http://www.LP.org)
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To: shortstop
You have outlined your list of valid grievances in a fair summary, but those facts are absent a few rejoinders..

I have been an employer in the hospitality industry for more than a few of decades, (at one point 3800 employees), and have employed more than my share of illegals. In the 60's in Chicago and throughout the Midwest, it was Greeks, Polish, and Lithuanians, even a few Russians, and Cubans. Most of these wonderful folks stayed long enough to establish a record of employment and opened their own businesses, or bought homes and learned English and blended into our lives as equals.

In the 70's it was Middle Easterners, and in the south, it was the beginning of the heavy Mexican influx. In the 80's it began the Pacific Rim invasion, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, and more Mexicans. The 90's was more Middle Easterners, and a lot more Central American's, than Mexican. It became a joke and a pattern that we had a second shift of Muslims that would work Sundays and Holidays to keep the doors opened when everyone else wanted or just took those days off.

My jobs were in the beginning, low paying, bottom rung, entry level jobs. Jobs that were steady and dirty. Maintainance, housekeeping, kitchen, dishwashing, busboy.. I started hiring illegals as a practice in the 70's by necessity.  By then, we had changed the school calendar (shorter summer vacation making training high school kids almost useless), child labor laws, under 16 unavailable, and with few exceptions (blacks), welfare or single mom minorities, that wouldn't work longer than 26 weeks. Just long enough to qualify for extended unemployment. It was far more insidious than just quitting after 26 weeks, they would fake an injury and file suit, or claim harassment, or labor claims against our company, costing thousands and keeping a law firm, not just a lawyer on the payroll (the 4th largest line item on my P & L statement).

For the most part, we kept these employees and raised their pay as they increased their effectiveness just to prevent the turnover. They would furnish us with relatives to replace themselves as they moved up the job ladder. NOBODY applied for these positions, and paying $12 an hour, plus benefits $6 more, for a dishwasher just doesn't work. These folks worked for $8, and would take home food, and learn a trade, cook, bellboy, bartender, waiter, and move up as soon as we taught them.

I left the hassle to raise my children, but just as much to escape the government and changing attitudes of my fellow countrymen toward immigrants.. and this sort of problem we are faced with today.. Bitch all you want, but you are not allowed to be as aware as you need to be.. Today you have almost exclusively fast foods and poor motel service because of this pressure to pander to your emotions,. Now you pump your own gas, pick up your own food in a restaurant, and soon you will make your own beds, or purchase fruits and vegetables from Timbuktu, because we cut off immigration... I'm outta here.. Bash Bush, bus your own tables, and feed your kids junk.. you are winning..  Developing..

144 posted on 01/07/2004 7:58:56 AM PST by carlo3b (http://www.CookingWithCarlo.com)
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To: shortstop
At least Mexicans work --- there's a bunch of porch setters that collect welfare that won't pick up the trash in their own yards.
171 posted on 01/07/2004 8:44:35 AM PST by sandydipper (Never quit - never surrender!)
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To: shortstop
No Guts No Glory; the American people have abandoned their National Inheritance and their Birthright to Socialism by not fighting back with a National Referendum that would force a showdown of wills. A nation of wimps bowing to a Tin Horn Mexican Bandit! Warnings after warnings go un-heeded and we have not the will to Recall, Impeach or Redress our Socialist TRAITORS! NOBODY!... Is "above" this AMORAL OUTRAGE! Shame on you AMERICA for showing absolutely no BACKBONE against spinless TYRANTS!
195 posted on 01/07/2004 9:06:09 AM PST by winker
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To: shortstop
So how many here who are so quickly to condemn Dubya will also stand up and condemn RONALD REAGAN for his 1987 amnesty move!?!? Let's all hear how Reagan is not a true conservative, after all he:

1. Never limited abortion in any way, like Dubya has.
2. Appointed any "true conservatives" to the Supreme Court.
3. Dealt arms with IRAN, a known terrorist country.
4. Never gave the American people as many tax cuts in his 8 years as Dubya has already done in his almost 3 years.


Anyone? Anyone?!? The hypocrisy of some conservatives on this board is astounding.
214 posted on 01/07/2004 9:46:50 AM PST by medscribe
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To: shortstop
George 41 lost because he made conservatives mad. His policies (ADA for one) are ruining economy. Clinton sounded more conservative. Perception is reality in the minds of the masses.

Ed Gullispie ran Dole's campaign. Dole pandered to the left. Dole was a moderate (liberal in some minds) during Reagan years. Dole lost because he was limp and liberal and CONSERVATIVES SAT OUT.

George 43 AT FIRST pandered to moderate votes as Dole pandered until McCain ALMOST won ticket. McCain lost because George 43 PROMISED conservative platform would be pushed through when he became prez. Conservatives saved GWB's butt.

Memo to Rove and Bush: Liberals will vote Dem come election day. Your attempt to chip at the Dem margins to offset conservatives WILL NOT WORK. Never worked in the past. Some conservatives I know have already decided to sit out 2004. IMO, despite what election polls 11 months out indicate, slim is GWB chances if he continues down this road.

PS. GOP gained in 1994, 96, 98, 2000, and 2002 mainly because conservative talk shows said GOP candidates would be CONSERVATIVE not because traditional libs switched. Some conservatives are waking up and realizing that power lies in Legislative more than Executive. Some conservatives are waking up to realization that conservatives limited Clinton and forced him to be conservative. Maybe it's time for conservatives to force GOP to be conservative.
221 posted on 01/07/2004 9:58:49 AM PST by sully777 ("Not a thought lifted itself from Chance's brain. Peace filled his chest." -- Being There)
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To: shortstop
There are not enough Mexican votes to offset Pres. Bush's loss of his former Republican supporters. I'm mystified
that the reports of giving amnesty to law breakers will gain votes for Bush. He is setting himself up for a humiliating loss this year.
224 posted on 01/07/2004 10:04:28 AM PST by hgro
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To: shortstop
What time? Can I watch his speech over ther internet on CSPAN?
238 posted on 01/07/2004 10:54:18 AM PST by TexasCajun
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To: shortstop
The message to anyone who follows the legal path to immigration is that they are a CHUMP!
242 posted on 01/07/2004 11:24:48 AM PST by expatguy
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To: shortstop
It’s clear proof that the adage “Dance with the one what brung ya” doesn’t apply in the GOP.

This line alone says it all.

The Congressional Republicans (most) are not holding to the principles that brought them to power in '94.

And now they and Bush are colluding on this amnesty deal.

Republicans who are sick of this need to exercise some tough love. Telling them you're not happy isn't good enough. Voting against them and cleaning out the filth is the only way to really communicate the message and do some good.

254 posted on 01/07/2004 1:36:11 PM PST by StoneColdGOP (McClintock - In Your Heart, You Know He's Right)
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To: shortstop
I think that the President lost more white votes today than he gained in hispanic votes.
259 posted on 01/07/2004 4:11:39 PM PST by FloridaBoy
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To: shortstop
Legal abuse of the First Amendment-Daily Campaign Finance Reform thread-day 28

260 posted on 01/07/2004 11:27:00 PM PST by The_Eaglet (Conservative chat on IRC: http://searchirc.com/search.php?F=exact&T=chan&N=33&I=conservative)
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