Report: Submarine damage worse than expected [USS Hartford]

Navy Times ^ | December 23, 2003 | AP Staff

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

GROTON, Conn.

[SolitaryMan]

They normally don't do TRE in the Med, usually at AUTEC in the Bahamas. Now ORSE's will happen during the transit home, but the work-up can starts month before. During my last visit over there, we did VIP cruises in the vicinity of La Mad, wonder if that's what they were doing at the time? ala USS Greenville?

[Doohickey]

I did a TRE/CRE out of La Madd in the late '90's. They flew the TRE team in from Norfolk. We got the Battle "E" and Green "C" that year.

[SolitaryMan]

The TRE was done in the Med?

[Castlebar]

At the risk of offending liberal readers, are we talking affirmative action sub driver here?

HELL NO.

Chris Van metre is the son of one submarine skipper and the grandson of another. He was a stellar performer as a junior officer (NCM on his first tour, this was in the days before they were given out for petty PC stuff.) The Squadron Commander (Captain) rides all boats out of La Mad and he didn't see this coming either. CO is by definition responsible for the state of training of the NAV team - but keep in mind CDR VanMetre had had command for less than four months.

[Poohbah]

Has the rank of Commodore been reactivated? I know about ten years ago it was being considered?

It's a title, not a rank. It's used to denote someone who commands a squadron of ships or submarines.

[Doohickey]

Yep. It was unusual, and given that it was the end of the run and we were going to be doing ORSE workup on the transit back, we were shall we say, less than enthusiastic.

[bmwcyle]

I sailed out of there twice. The Captain was not doing his job.

[j_tull]

You would think that updates would be automatice in todays world of computers, etc.

While all those data are available, they are plotted on the "secondary" plot. Primary is still visual bearings, shot throught the periscope.

[Doohickey]

No. He's called the Commodore because he is in a flag billet (Commodore is equivalent to a Rear Admiral (lower half)). Normally, he's actually a Captain.

Similarly, a ship's "Captain" is normally a Commander in rank, except for very large targets like bird farms and some Tico-class cruisers.

[mikenola]

Thanks for info all. I work for the Navy on the shipbuilding side, and I haven't heard *jack* of this incident.

[Doohickey]

You're right in that it's the CO's responsibility.

It's the Quartermaster's duty to plot all fixes on the approved navigation chart. He was likely getting a ton of fixes: GPS, radar, visuals and if this boat was like mine; LORAN. All the fixes in the world don't do you any good if you don't plot them. The fathometer should have been running too (it's located directly outboard and slightly forward of the plotter).

Worse, if the Nav party was stationed (as I imagine it was), this means the XO was Control Room Supervisor, the Navigator was in charge of the Nav party and the ANav was Contact Coordinator, and every single one of them was screwing the pooch.

There was simply NO excuse for this.

[tanknetter]

if they refurbished an older Los Angeles class that they were planning to take out of service they could probably get a usable boat for about half a billion.

Hartford is one of the later-model 688s with the VLS tubes and some additional capabilities. I think most, if not all of the 688s that are being retired early (at their mid-life refueling point) are the earlier, non-VLS models.

It would definitely be possible to decomm Hartford and replace her with a 688 that's slated to leave service. The 688s that are going out are going out YOUNG, due to the cost of refueling, not because of age or mechanical issues. I actually don't think the cost of doing so would be that excessive, since the Navy would be taking the cost of Hartford's mid-life refueling/overhaul (which would probably happen around her 20-year service mark, in 2014) and applying it to another boat, just earlier. Time value of money comes into play, of course, and you'd still have a less-capable (non-VLS) boat.

[BlueNgold]

Commodore, although no longer used as a rank (Used to be 1 star ADM), is still a title for a squadron commander, usually a very senior Capt or Junior 1 star. In some of the Surface squadrons it can even be a 2 star.

[BlueNgold]

Depends on depth ... to go further into the details of submarine electronic capabilities would delve into the word of the classified

[PAR35]

I believe you are completely correct. The number I threw out for a re-do on an older boat also did not take into account the savings realized by not decommissioning the older boat. I think it cost about half as much to decomission as it does to refit and refuel.

[Stonewall Jackson]

Commodore is an honorary title given to a captain who is either commanding a squadron of ships or subs or is holding down an admiral's post.

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

Has there been any recent talk of bringing back the rank? What seems to be the objection to having the rank of Commodore-besides the fact congress would have to create it?

[75thOVI]

Now can you finish this quote?
Submariners Once!
Submariners Twice!...

Holy jumping jeebus christ!

:)

"We go up!
We go down!......."

It's OK if you don't take it past that. I was at the 1981 Submarine Birthday Ball in Norfolk. ComSubLant was there. About halfway into the evening (and the bag.) We all started the cheer. It faded into sort of an embarassed silence at about that point. One of my fellow reenactors, a TMCS(SS) and I almost got thrown out of the battle of Olustee, a few years back over that cheer. Submariners thrown out of a battle for being lewd, crude, rude, and socially unacceptable. Who could imagine?

[caltaxed]

Hate to say it, but the San Juan hit the that boomer back in 1998, they just cut out the portion of the hull and kept it in service. They do all of the necessary NDT testing and such to make sure it's good to go.

Hull repairs reduce structural integrity, and the 688 class was piss-poor to start with.