How Many Catholics Were Killed During Cromwell and Henry VIII In England?

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[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

My daughter who is named Chelsea after Thomas Moores residence is doing a Research Paper for History on Saint Thomas Moore.

In one of his late letters he referrs to the death of 4000 Catholics in the small port town of Chelsea, but we are having a hard time coming up with a total number of Catholics killed as a result of Henry VIII's and Cromwells reformation.

All the encyclopedia's cover the number of his wifes, how much money he "borrowed" from the Church, but nowhere can I find the number of Catholics killed.

[afraidfortherepublic]

Bloody Mary and Mary Queen of Scots were two different people. Bloody Mary was Mary Tudor and she was Elizabeth I's half-sister, daughter of Henry XIII's first wife, Katherine.

Mary, Queen of Scots, was a cousin who had a claim to the English throne because many people considered Elizabeth to be a 'bastard' because they considered Henry's marriage to her mother, Ann Bolyn, to be illegitimate because he had divorced his first wife (Mary Tudor's mother) to marry her.

[AnAmericanMother]

400,000 under Henry VIII? Don't think so. The entire population of England and Wales at that time was around 4 million. The loss of TEN PERCENT of the population would have been noticed as a major event. Around 600,000 Britons were killed in the First World War, and all you have to do is look at the war memorial in every little village to realize what a major hit that was, even in a total population that was much larger by 1915 (about 45 million). (The Black Death, which depopulated entire towns and altered the landscape of England forever, got thirty percent and that's the greatest mortality ever.)

[AnAmericanMother]

Oh, plenty of reason for lots of folks to dislike old Noll, even if he's the wrong Cromwell . . .

But if you spit on his marker, too bad, he ain't there no more. Nobody's there, the horse is out and the stable door is open.

After the Restoration the royalists dug the man's body out of his grave in Westminster Abbey, hanged him, cut off his head, and stuck the head on a pole at Westminster where it remained for 20 years. It blew down in a storm, and one of your typical English eccentrics kept it under his sofa for a long time. It passed from owner to owner, but some time in the 50s it was X-rayed and they decided it was really Cromwell's. Eventually the head wound up at Cambridge and was buried in an unmarked location near Sidney Sussex college. The body is, I presume, still under the old location of Tyburn Tree (near Connaught Square).

. . . they really knew how to hold a grudge in the good old days . . .

[gaspar]

Under the heading "Henry VIII" that appears in the Catholic Encyclopedia, the entry only notes the "numerous" deaths that occurred during his reign.

See: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07222a.htm

I cannot think of anyone who has actually attempted to quantify the numbers.

[lavrenti]

Mary was a Catholic, and had no business sitting on the throne. She basically changed the rules after getting the Privy Council to back her.

Rightful heir has a nice ring to it, but it was intended that no Catholic sit on an English throne. Mary had as much right to be queen as a washerwoman.

[niteowl77]

In this world where the hostility to Christianity is huge, both from secular forces and from Islam, it seems to me that whatever the differences among Christians of different flavors, our common acknowledgement of the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount, and we need to stand together against Christianity's enemies.

I concur. Two weeks ago, I read a letter to the editor of a local paper that was a nasty polemic against Martin Luther (it was in response to a movie review). When it was pointed out to me, I read it and then mentioned that the Roman Catholic Church had already disavowed much of the invective. It was a sickening read, and one that I consider nothing more than a slap in the face of Christ, because it was nothing more than a partisan taunt disguised as pious defense.

Sure, it was just another example of an old fart retching up his precious collection of fin de siecle dogma (akin to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion- another nice collection of falsehoods still doing mischief), but it was embarrassing nonetheless. It would have been equally embarrassing had someone printed a pocket hagiography of the Fat Doctor and made him out to be flawless. Some of this crap is more much more suited to a footbal rivalry than the body of believers in Him.

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

There are few estimates because few catholics were killed. They generally paid their fines and went to church unmolested.

[It's me]

And who made that rule? Who changed it? Was not Henry VIII Catholic? And all before him?

[It's me]

If she had no business being on the throne, how did she get a council to back her? Were they not all Protestants?

Think about it. She had the only right to be on the throne and stayed until her death which was a reign of only five years.

[AnAmericanMother]

Well, we have an outside number from Wikipedia. The best estimate is that approximately 70,000 people were executed during the reign of Henry VIII. That is for all offenses, down to the village thief hanged for stealing to the value of 12 pennies - ALL felonies were capital offenses at that time, including all burglaries, all robberies, arson, cattle maiming, etc. etc. It was pretty easy to get yourself hanged.

That is a lot of dead folks, but nowhere near 400,000.

[wimpycat]

While touring Westminster Abbey in 1998, as I passed the burial nitch of Oliver Cromwell, I spat upon his grave.

LOL! My husband stomped on it. But his body isn't there any more. After the Restoration, Cromwell's body was dug up and hanged.

[Looking for Diogenes]

I did a little research as well, which confirms your numbers. If 650,000 had died under Henry VIII and Elizabeth I it would have been a decimation of the country. That number is not credible unless backed up by explicit proof.

[AnAmericanMother]

See post 83. His head and his body are approximately 60 miles apart.

May be a difficulty on the Great Day . . . . :-D

[wimpycat]

I saw post #83 only after I posted my post.

Speaking of remains, I think it would be so cool if they would dig up some of the kings and queens buried at Westminster (or wherever) and study their remains. They only do it though if the bodies turn up during excavations or renovations. At some point (maybe in the 1800's?) they looked at the bones of Henry VIII, and was confirmed to have been around 6'2" or thereabouts. I don't know if they checked him for syphilis, or if they had the means to. But longstanding syphilis would show up in the bones and the rumor could be easily confirmed or dispelled.

[sjeann]

Thought you would be interested in this thread!

[Ronaldus Magnus]

Although I believe the historical account in my link to be objective, it is important to remember that the history of the Spanish Inquisition was severely exaggerated as part of a deliberate propaganda campaign. As you seem to know, it was aimed at the Conversos, not the Jews who had publically refused conversion. Although there was a great injustice in how many people may have been displaced, only about 4,000 were ever executed.

[rustbucket]

Thanks for posting that link. It sounds very much like some of the things that happened on the Continent. Now I understand Cromwell's actions better.

[jocon307]

That was very interesting. I love how he started the article with the Python sketch! I must say I think "History of the World" is Mel Brooks one miserable failure. And yes, that includes 'Robin Hood, Men in Tights', I liked that one, I walked out of History.

[jocon307]

WOAH! Quite a correction. Glad to hear it, for all those 27,000 who would be dead long ago anyway.

Shows you the fragility of life, history, and statistics all in one fell swoop.

What the heck is a fell swoop anyway?

[sawyer]

Why did he add Cromwell into this? Henry the eight and Cromwell and More. I do not get that at all.