How Many Catholics Were Killed During Cromwell and Henry VIII In England?

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[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

My daughter who is named Chelsea after Thomas Moores residence is doing a Research Paper for History on Saint Thomas Moore.

In one of his late letters he referrs to the death of 4000 Catholics in the small port town of Chelsea, but we are having a hard time coming up with a total number of Catholics killed as a result of Henry VIII's and Cromwells reformation.

All the encyclopedia's cover the number of his wifes, how much money he "borrowed" from the Church, but nowhere can I find the number of Catholics killed.

[Verginius Rufus]

The usual rule in England is that the sons of the reigning monarch are first in line to the throne, followed by the daughters. In Henry VIII's case it was complicated by his divorce of Catherine of Aragon and his beheading of Ann Boleyn, but before his death he ordered that all three children by his wives be in line for the throne--Edward as the only boy, then his two daughters in order of age.

Lady Jane Grey was a granddaughter of Mary, the sister of Henry VIII. As long as two of Henry's daughters were around it was hard to make the case that she was the rightful queen.

[Verginius Rufus]

What the heck is a fell swoop anyway?

Ask William Shakespeare.

Macduff. All my pretty ones?
Did you say all? O hell-kite! All?
What, all my pretty chickens and their dam
At one fell swoop?

--Macbeth, Act IV, Scene III.

[jocon307]

"Is this the incident that is referred to in the song 'The wearing of the Green'? ...they are hanging men and women there for wearing of the green...."

Red, I gotta tell you this. My Irish, Catholic Grandmother from Omagh in Co. Tyrone once almost killed me for playing that song on the piano. She told me "The dirty politicians wrote that song" to set people against one another. She also shook my hand when I left the Girl Scouts (which I did because they all teased me) and congratulated me for "Leaving that quasi-militaristic organization".

I felt I had to point her words out to you, I don't know anything about it really, I was too scared to really inquire.

I think my Mary-ama would have fit in quite well here on FR.

[AnAmericanMother]

It was 1812 when Henry VIII was dug up. They were a lot more interested in the body of Charles I, which was discovered where it had been hidden in his tomb.

[Phsstpok]

Why did he add Cromwell into this? Henry the eight and Cromwell and More. I do not get that at all.

The theme is apparently the oppression / murder of Catholics by Protestants under English (Protestant) rule. Cromwell was a Puritan leader instrumental in bringing down the Stuart monarchy in England, who at that time (1640s) were no longer Catholic, but were pushing the more Catholic like form of the Anglican church (though they were to reform members for some as well).  I gather that the Stuarts inherited the crown when Elizabeth 1 died without an heir and Mary Queen of Scots' (yes, I now know that she's not Bloody Mary) son was the next heir.  By the time of Cromwell there had been several Stuart kings who were locked in big struggles with Parliament over power, including church power.

 The Puritans were the radicals, many wanting to do away with the monarchy, some were pure leftist zealots who, among other things, wanted to strip away all forms of ritual left from the split with Rome in favor of a "pure" religion.  Doing a quick Google on Cromwell and Catholic I got a fairly good history here.  I do know that Cromwell extended the civil war into Ireland and the identifying symbol of the Protestants, wearing orange (usually sashes), is still a central part of the symbolism in the Catholic/Protestant battles there.

[Xenalyte]

Mary, Queen of Scots was a catholic, but held at house arrest by Elizabeth until her beheading due to her betrayal and working in the background to claim the English throne. I believe Mary/Scots and Elizabeth were cousins of sorts.

Henry VII (Elizabeth's dad) had two sisters, Mary and Margaret. Margaret married the Scottish king and had a son, James, who fathered Mary Queen o' Scots. That would make her Elizabeth's niece, or second cousin, or something. They always called one another "Cousin," which was a usual form of address between non-siblings back then.

[wimpycat]

You mean Charles I was buried in Henry VIII's tomb, or near it?

[AnAmericanMother]

The coffin containing the separated head and body of Charles I was discovered inside the tomb of Henry VIII, along with the coffins of Henry, his favorite wife Jane Seymour, and one of Queen Anne's stillborn babies.

The Opening of the Lost Coffin of Charles I

[Burn24]

"The tendency of some Freepers, both Catholic and Protestant, to want to reargue the Reformation never ceases to amaze me."

And furthermore.. bring back the Stuarts!

[Xenalyte]

I would advise your daughter that Henry VIII reigned from 1485-1509, and Cromwell's reformation didn't take place until 1649 (his interregnum lasted until 1660). They're not exactly historically contiguous.

[AnAmericanMother]

Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots were first cousins, once removed. Mary and Margaret were Henry VIII's younger sisters, not Henry VII's. Arthur, the older brother who died, was Catherine of Aragon's first husband (and the reason/excuse Henry VIII used to try to get divorce no. 1)

[katana]

Mary Queen of Scots was not "Bloody Mary". That title rightfully belonged to Mary Tudor, half sister to Elizabeth I, and her predecessor on the throne. Mary Stewart was never able to gain the English throne but if she had there's little doubt she would have been just as ruthless as Mary Tudor in stamping out Protestantism in England.

[katana]

Mary Stewart was most definitely "interested" in the English throne. She was directly and indirectly involved in several plots to assassinate Elizabeth. The main reason Elizabeth had her executed was that she could never herself be safe as long as Mary could provide English Catholics with a ready (and devoutly Catholic) next-in-line to the throne.

[Xenalyte]

Did we decide if it's Thomas Cromwell, who worked for Henry VIII, or Oliver, who was about 150 years later?

[Xenalyte]

I meant VIII. Rats. Typed too fast, didn't proof. :)

[Xenalyte]

Wouldn't call her illegitimate per se . . . she was Henry's daughter by his second wife, Anne Boleyn.

[lavrenti]

Look, I'm Catholic, but I know Tudor skullduggery as much as any lay historian. Grey had better creditentals than that Spanish-marrying slob in thrall to corrupt Roman clerics.

England, and civilization would have been better served by a 16-year-old genius than the gutter trash the Catholics served up as "queen". That debacle set Western civilization back a century.

The reason why the Privy Council backed Mary was because Jane considered land distribution of the former Church estates. Big problem with the Tudor cronies who snapped up the best lands for themselves thanks to Henry.

[AnAmericanMother]

If your daughter is talking about OLIVER Cromwell and Henry VIII in the same breath, with the only linkage being the number of Catholics executed in their respective time periods, I would advise her to pick one or the other for her analysis, but not both.

As Xenalyte notes, the entire landscape of English politics and religion changed completely between 1500 and 1650. Not to mention the complicating factor of the English Civil War.

And under Henry it will be very difficult to figure out whether somebody was "Catholic" or not or whether they were executed for that reason alone -- since at that point everybody was calling themselves Catholic. A question that would be more to the point is how many folks were offed for refusing to take the Oath of Supremacy. But that tangles up the religion question with the political and it's not possible at this distance to determine with any certainty whether a particular executed individual's opposition to the Oath was religious or political in origin -- could have been either in many cases, and where we don't have the benefit of extensive correspondence as in the case of Thomas More, we simply cannot tell.

[Xenalyte]

Mary, I have read, showed her opinion of her father by having his remains dumpted into the Thames.

You read wrong. Mary believed devoutly in the divine right of kings to rule, and that rulers were God's leftenants on earth. She would never have desecrated one of her peers thus.

[RaceBannon]

It is not a spin, as you say, it is the written history of a genuine historian!

Seems you already were biased on this though, I am willing to admit that Cromwell most likely went too far, yet I have yet to read any historian on that, all seem to be silent in fact, have you got a link?

In the meantime, when your family is hunted down by the Priests, don't be surprised when the survivors write their account of the events a little...slanted?

Also, Fox was a Catholic when he began to write his histories of the Martyrs. Better read up on Fox.