Milosevic attacked Clark's personal character by citing criticism of him by Gen. Hugh Shelton

sfgate.com ^ | Wednesday, December 17, 2003 | Elaine Sciolino, New York Times

[Destro]

The Hague, Netherlands -- U.S. presidential politics can be played on any stage, and for the past two days it has unfolded behind closed doors in a courtroom in the Netherlands.

As President Bush basked in the capture of Saddam Hussein, Gen. Wesley Clark, who is seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, has had a strangely coincidental opportunity to point to his history with another man accused of war crimes: former President Slobodan Milosevic of Yugoslavia.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

Well. Merry Christmas to you to, sir.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

I don't defend Clinton. All I am saying is that he did, once, for entirely the wrong reasons, do the right thing. The Stopped Clock principle applies.

[Robert Drobot]

Your posts 57 and 58.....sources?

Please don't refer me to an internet book seller, as you did in 57. That link told me nothing to support your baseless commentary in both posts.

You would do well to read two links I made available in Post # 54. They'll give you a better feel for the information you should be researching. Unless of course, you just enjoy posting whatever comes into your head - reality be damned. It's showing, 502. Doodoo is as doodoo does.

Post 56....is that all you can give it 502??? Another opportunity shot to hell. Keep on practicing. One day you just might post something worth reading.

[mark502inf]

Robert, I posted this: And good for them--they were some of the brave people who resisted the Nazis at the risk of their lives in every occupied country from Norway and the Netherlands all the way down to Albania and Greece. and this:

Yugoslavia surrendered to the Germans 7 months before America entered the war. Serbia itself was ruled by a Nazi quisling Prime Minister named Nedic whose Serbian Border Guard, State Guard, and Volunteer Corps fought for and alongside the Germans in WWII. If you count supporting governments in exile and support for indigenous resistance movements, then America was allied with each of the three occupied countries in the Balkans: Greece, Albania, and Serbia.

These are basic historical facts--what exactly are you challenging? Do a web-search or look them up in an encyclopedia or any WWII book--the Serb military and para-military collaborationist units are somewhat obscure, so I linked you to a book on that subject--you can read the review, order the book, or get it from your library.

[Robert Drobot]

"....These are basic historical facts...."

Prove it.

"The Kingdom of Yugoslavia was attacked in April 1941 by the Fascist Forces of the Axes with Hungary and Bulgaria. The territory of Yugoslavia was occupied by these Forces, and the Independent State of Croatia was created, which declared war on the USA in December 1941. Serbia under occupation provided home and shelter to thousands of deported Slovenes.

"From 1941 to 1945, a systematic persecution and genocide was committed against the Serbian people in both Serbia proper, Croatia and Bosnia. About 1,000.000 Serbs perished. The most brutal were Croatian Fascists, Ustashi. " We shall kill one part of the Serbs, we shall transport another, and the rest will be forced to convert, " so said Dr. Mile Budak Minister of Education and Creeds in Craoatia on July 22,1941. In the concentration camp of Jasenovac, the most heinous crimes recorded in history were committed on more than 700,000 men women and children. ( When in 1984 the Serbian Patriarch German consecrated the memorial church in Jasenovac, he said "Forgive we must, forget we cannot.")It was customary for Ustashi to torture Serbian people, tie them in bundles and throw into pits. Examples of such crimes are numerous. In the village of Prebilovci, near Medjugorje in Hercegovina, 870 people were massacred. Nearly 50 years later their remains were exhumed and laid to rest in a newly built memorial church. Both the church and the remains were dynamited after the secession of Bosnia . in 1992.

"In October 1941, the Nazi Germans executed over 7000 Serbs in the city of Kragujevac, including classes of high school students during the school session. In Vojvodina, Hungarian Fascists killed by drowning in ice covered rivers of the Danube and Tisa thousands of Serbian men, women and children. In 1941, General Draza Mihajlovic and his followers, Chetniks, organized the first armed resistance in the Nazi occupied Europe. As a Royalist, he opposed the Communist Partisan leader Josip Broz Tito. During the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia, 1941-1945, General Draza Mihajlovic and his Chetnics saved over 500 downed allied pilots mainly from the United States.

"In recognition, General Mihajlovic was awarded posthumously The Legion of Merit by President Harry S. Truman (March 1948). General Mihajlovic was captured by Tito's Communists and executed in 1946." -- Serb History

Put up, or shut up, 502.

[mark502inf]

"....These are basic historical facts...." Prove it.

Robert, most of what I posted is as controversial as 2+2=4, so I'm not sure what you want me to prove. If you dispute anything in particular, please do a "cut & paste" or quote of what I wrote and tell me what you think is wrong and I'll respond.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

That *plonck* sound you just heard is Drobet's falling to the bottom of the Destro Memorial Gibbering Serbocrazy List of those ranters unworthy of any effort beyond mockery.

[faithincowboys]

In regards to providing hateful, explosive, dishonest quotes to the mouths of our enemies, Clark has no peer. Whatever he gets blown back at him will be too little in my book.

[Gael]

General Nedic was a world war I Serbian military hero who reluctantly set up a collaborationist government after the nazi occupiers threatened to turn Serbia’s administration over to the Bulgarians. Nedic thought that by doing this he was saving Serbia from even harsher treatment than it otherwise received. We can argue that he made the wrong choice, but he collaborated not out of liking for the nazis but to )in his view) mitigate the effects of collaboration.

I own and have read the book Mark cites. The book does not support Mark’s implication that the SVC was an anti-Allied unit. To the contrary, its role was suppression of communists in Serbia proper. It refused to participate in Axis ops in Russia, unlike the Croats. As the intro to the book (written by Antonio Munoz, who is certainly not pro-Serbian) says, “Meysner [the German SS leader in Serbia] . . . was against the idea of ‘legalized Chetniks’ since he considered them potential enemies who would betray the Germans at any opportune time. He reasoned rightly that Nedic and those nationalist forces under his command were truly loyal to the Serbian exiled king and not to Nazi Germany.”

The book establishes that much of the SVC’s strength consisted of anti-German elements who joined to get arms from the Germans and preserve unit cohesiveness while biding their time to fight the nazis.

What Mark’s trying to do is establish a symmetry of collaboration between Serbia and nazi Germany’s once (and America’s future) allies, the Bosnian Muslims, Croats, and Kosovo Albanians. What Mark and his ilk would have you believe is that all groups in ww2 Yugoslavia collaborated, and thus that they were all equally guilty, and that the Serbs were never our allies, or if they were it was only to the same extent as everyone else in Yugoslavia. The argument is a lie. It’s Tito’s “Unity and Brotherhood” myth with a dollop of Croat ustashe self-justification mixed in.

If you want to find out the real story of Chetnik resistance to the nazis – not the ustashe and communist slander that, for example, Draza Mihailovic collaborated – check out the following books. They demonstrate that the lies told about Serbs didn’t start in 1991, and that the US wasn’t the first country to betray its Serbian allies:

Tito, Mihailovic & the Allies

The Rape of Serbia: The British Role in Tito’s Grab for Power

The Web of Disinformation: Churchill’s Yugoslav Blunder

[Gael]

Meant to ping you as well.

[kosta50]

Don't strain your intellect too much Mark -- you know very well what Robert is saying: the Serbs were the only people in the Balkans resisting Nazi occupation and, later, saving American pilots and fighting for the allied cause. Scumbag collaborators, ala Nedich and others, who don't represent the people but foreign interests, are always to be found, even today.

The Kingdom of Yugoslavia was allied with France and was as much a British and American ally as the French, Polish, Norwegian and other governments in exile were.

[Robert Drobot]

Gael :
Thanks for the intercession. Fakers abound, especially on FR. Truth is their worst nightmare.

mark502inf and Ronly Bonly Jones :
A review of the links provided by Gael may assist in your enlightenment about Serbian History. After you grasp the truth, you will come to terms with the loss of a staunch ally. All paid for by American taxpayer money to pay for the New World Order global political agenda.

New World Order control of the Balkans will never be compete. All sides despise the monster behind the monster in control of and pretending to represent the American Citizenry. America has no allies there - including Turkey.

The people of the Balkan countries have always confounded and eventually defeated those who foolishly thought themselves conquers. I have no reason to believe our bully presence will be very temporary as well.

We are drowning in debt, yet the NWO steals from our bankrupt treasury to finance their plans to control the world.

[Robert Drobot]

mark502inf and Ronly Bonly Jones,

Post 72 was intended for you as well.

[Lion in Winter]

clinton NEVER did one single right thing in his whole life.

You are a clinton supporter and a fan of clark.

You need to leave this conservative site because YOU support the enemies of GEORGE BUSH!

We have an election coming up and we sure do not need your type around here!

[Robert Drobot]

I have [every] reason to believe our bully presence will be very temporary as well.

[Robert Drobot]

Post 76 is a correction of a sentence I wrote in Post 72. Please excuse the poor manner in which I made the correction.

[joan]

If Clark thought Milosevic so guilty back in 1995, why were he an Milosevic smiling at each other in 1997?

Former Yugoslav strongman Slobodan Milosevic (news - web sites ) (R), seen in in 1997 with US General Wesley Clark (news - web sites ) (L), and three other suspected war criminals are running in Serbian parliamentary elections next week but analysts say nationalists have no hope of clawing their way back into power(AFP/File)

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

You need to leave this conservative site because YOU support the enemies of GEORGE BUSH!>>

I don't remember anyone spraypainting SU MA SRPSKA on the homepage of FreeRepublic.

You need me to leave this site because, like the Serbs in Bosnia, you cannot tolerate someone with a different perspective than you contradicting Milosevist propaganda.

I am far more conservative than you: I believe in the conservation of human life, all of it, even that life belonging to people whose fridges and farms other people might want to steal.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

I saw enough of the Serbian agenda in Bosnia when on duty in Bosnia for over two years, where I was closely involved in the aftermath of Serbian genocide at Srebrenica. My duties included ongoing visits to the Interionational Commission on Missing Persons to the Former Yugoslavia, the Srebrenica Victims Identification Center in Tuzla, the Srebrenica graveyard in the woods next to the Battery Factory in Potocari, as well as official business with leading political figures throughout the Drina Valley, including war criminals (on the Serb side) and concentration camp survivors (Bratunac 1992) and Sreb survivors (on the Muslim side). The agenda was made completely and manifested clear by the thousands of sets of skeletons of murdered Muslim men that were stored at the Tuzla morgue and eventually buried at a cemetery at Potocari that I was personally involved in helping to create, the center that Clinton dedicated some weeks ago.

The Serbs under Milosevic (and Karadzic) acted like Nazis in Bosnia and Kosovo in every respect until Slobbo was overthrown in 2000. The war they STARTED was entirely avoidable and, although clothed in ethnic hatred, was just a combination land grab and grand act of property theft. They earned the disgust and hatred of every one of their neighbors through their deliberate bad behavior.

And don't tell me that what they did was even in the slightest bit justified by history. Even IF the worst Serb nightmare stories about Jasanovac in WW2 are true (and they may well be; the Croats were certainly the bad actors of WW2), NOTHING justifies what happened in 1992. Nothing.

Now that Slobbo is in his cage, the Serbs are behaving themselves. Fine. I have no problem with that (although the "Republika Srpska" *needs* to go in the name of justice; it's a corrupt abomination that serves nobody but the politicians that rule it).

I'm not interested in destroying the Serb people; I'm just interested in the Serbs behaving themselves until the generation that led them to act like Satan in 1991-1999 finally leaves the political stage.