Posted on 12/08/2003 7:44:45 AM PST by Hillary's Folly
So? Why would you not feel good about yourself?
Because I care about the feelings and rights of others and (to some extent) their opinions of me.
They only exist because you perceive them. If you didn't perceive them, they would cease to exist.
Because if everyone behaved such, we would have anarchy and a failed society...
We don't need everybody to behave in this way. Just a few.
And because I imagine being in jail would really suck.
You're proving my point with this one.
No one is perfect,
What is perfect? (To coin a phrase.) How do you know you are not perfect? You can merely declare that all who deviate from yourself are imperfect by definition.
But most people try to do the right thing . . .
. . . because they have been civilized. If there is no abstract underpinning of that civilization, then it is merely a bunch of imposed rules that can be cast off with a stroke of the pen or a change in the zeitgeist.
All the more reason to behave in such a way that you feel good about the time you spent on this world.
Yeah, well that and $4 will get you a cup of coffee these days. How do you even define "good"? Suppose somebody said they wanted to save their neighbors from the pain of further existence? Were they acting "good"?
Not everyone is as selfish as yourself.
Yes they are. Everyone. Every single person.
Has religion ever done anything to prevent those who would "devour"?
Of course not. It's a baseline.
I still maintain that man is basically "good".
Really? Do you believe that when food is given away for free to the poor that the number of poor do not increase?
The bottom line here is that you are forming, in these posts, a rudimentary theology.
And guess who is the god.
Sure I do. Just ask humanity.
Roman law comes to mind, as does Hammurabbi, Greeks,
Well, you've got me. I ain't never heard of no Greek or Roman gods.
Egypt,
Nor Ra
China, Japan,
Nor Buddha nor Shinto
the Pacific Islands,
Huh?
India,
nor Hinduism . . .
All societies come to an end eventually, as I'm pretty sure ours will.
I don't know, 5000+ years is pretty darned good if you ask me.
Because those things work, for the most part. I never argued with that. This thread has really gone a long way around :). I do not see the things that John wanted us to imagine gone as bad things. But I have no trouble imagining a world where they were unneccesary.. as unrealistic as that is. But, we're "imagining", remember?
Freedom, Justice, Capitalism and personal/societal responsibility are built upon an idea of Society balancing Liberty and Morality. The world of Imagine cannot support that balance.
Agreed.
What society are you speaking of, that is +5000yo?
It starts with Abraham. I'm not talking about a political structure here.
The battle (good vs. evil) rages. It's in every human heart. You obviously sense it, as indicated by your mention of your own conscience (who needs a conscience if there isn't an internal struggle between good and evil?).
I was suggesting that to blame religion for death and destruction is to unfairly scapegoat religion. Every civil institution is subject to a constant and whithering attack from people bent on corrupting it for their own purposes. Some institutions stand, others fall. Those with a fighting chance are the ones that acknowledge and take precautions against man's sinful nature from the outset (I would humbly submit that Christianity and the United States of America are two of these). Those that presume to serve an inherently good humanity are doomed to a "short, nasty and brutish" existence.
That's why the song irks me so much. It may be only a song, but it serves to indoctrinate the sheeple into believing that the world would be Utopia if only man were left to his own devices. But to blame governments and religions for man's downfall is self-deceiving folly. The reality is the opposite.
Bingo! - IF man is the only determination of "good" (what man 'reasons') - then any man or group of men can change what is "good" - suddenly you have Nazi Germany!
This is not intended as a barb or taunt of any kind. I have a genuine question for you, offered in friendship. Maybe you've already explained this elsewhere on FR, but what was the nature of your bad experience (alluded to by your TbL handle) with people in the Christian church?
I ask because I see a world where Christianity is unnecessary as a pretty dreary place. Like dreaming of a world where music was unnecessary, or where breathtaking sunsets were unnecessary, or where physical intimacy with members of the opposite sex was unnecessary. I see Christianity as adding so much depth, beauty and richness to my experience of life that I shudder to think of a world in which it is no longer "necessary". But you have obviously not had that experience and I am left curious.
So? Why would you not feel good about yourself?
I think I already explained this. But, basically, because it would be against my nature, against the moral code by which I try to live. This code, I believe, which is partly derived from the Christian beliefs the society in which I live is also partly "built in" and partly made up by me because I like to think about such things.
They only exist because you perceive them. If you didn't perceive them, they would cease to exist.
Exactly. I exist. I perceive them so they exist. Hehe, this is sort of like the tree that falls in the forest when no one is around, eh?"
We don't need everybody to behave in this way. Just a few.
You sort of lost me here. I think you mean that it only takes a few to act "evilly" to screw up the world - in which case, I agree. But religion has not stopped this, in fact, in some cases, it has promoted it.
And because I imagine being in jail would really suck.
You're proving my point with this one.
Perhaps I've misunderstood your point. I never claimed that my moral code was just created willy nilly from thin air or that fear of punishment was not a factor in my behavior - just that it is not the ONLY factor.
Yeah, well that and $4 will get you a cup of coffee these days. How do you even define "good"? Suppose somebody said they wanted to save their neighbors from the pain of further existence? Were they acting "good"?
I think "good" is not the best word for what I mean but I am having no luck dredging up a better one so.. I define it as behaving in a way that is not destructive to others. To have at least some desire to help your fellows when they need it. Indeed, to not behave as you described in the post I originally replied to.
Yes they are. Everyone. Every single person.
This is the view I can not accept or believe. I could not live my life if I believed this. It is the view of the classic sociopath.
Really? Do you believe that when food is given away for free to the poor that the number of poor do not increase?
No. By providing such for those who could otherwise provide for themselves, you are not doing them any favors - it is not a kindness. It would also encourage more to opt for the free ride.
The bottom line here is that you are forming, in these posts, a rudimentary theology.
And guess who is the god.
You are implying that my "theology" is one of self-worship.. that I see myself as my own diety.
I don't see it that way. It could be partially right if, as I've sometimes wondered, if mankind is god. That if I worship anything, it is the brotherhood of man. Its certainly not me. I am insigificant except to myself and those who love me.. (yeah, there are a few :) ).
.. and I am out of time. The parts I didn't quote are ommited because I didn't understand them or because they didn't really seem to conflict with my own argument.
I probably will be unable to reply again but, have at it. Oh and thanks! :)
Religion or better a Western Civilization built upon a Transcendent Moral Authority is why we fight or can even define "evil". WWII would never have been fought had we decided to shake loose our binding to a Morality greater than our own reason.
I'll agree and then submit that the Ideas challenged in Imagine have already won out and you simply have a man rehashing what we all figured out long ago. Not very "Edgy" is it?
The guy who wasted his time writing this story needs to get a life.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.