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Stone Warrior Delights Experts (Celts)
BBC ^ | 12-5-2003 | Paul Rincon

Posted on 12/05/2003 5:20:19 PM PST by blam

Stone warrior delights experts

By Paul Rincon
BBC News Online science staff

The style of the armour is unusual for this area of France

Archaeologists are delighted by a 2,500-year-old stone statue that offers a rare insight into life in western Europe before the Roman conquest. The stone torso, unearthed at Lattes in southern France, is one of just a few detailed figurines considered to have been made by the ancient Celts.

The statue of a male warrior wears a style of armour worn in Spain and Italy and was life-size when it was complete.

The "Warrior of Lattes" is described in the scholarly journal Antiquity.

It is around 79 centimetres in height and was discovered in the wall of an Iron Age house where it had been used as a building stone.

Some time after it was created, the statue was mutilated to be re-used in a door opening. The head was removed, the left leg and arm hacked off and the crest of the warrior's helmet smoothed away.

The statue's pose is also unusual for Iron Age sculptures from southern France. Most are shown cross-legged, but the Lattes sculpture was in a crouched position - a pose reminiscent of some Greek sculptures.

Cultural elite

Experts say the statue provides a unique insight into early interactions between the inhabitants of western Europe and the classical world prior to the Roman conquest.

The style of armour worn by the warrior is similar to that found in graves and on statues associated with the Iberian culture of ancient Spain. However, the Iberians may have adopted this style of armour through links with Italy.

The statue may orignally have been kneeling

This is unusual because the people of the eastern Languedoc region of France, where the statue was found, are generally thought to have had a Celtic culture, different from people from the Iberian zone to the west.

Michael Dietler, of the University of Chicago, US, and Michel Py of the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique in Lattes, France, propose that a cultural elite in the eastern Languedoc may have adopted exotic customs, while the majority of the people held on to their old ways.

Professor Greg Woolf, a historian at the University of St Andrews in the UK, told BBC News Online: "I can't think of anything to compare it to. But this could be the result of a broad range of interaction [in the Mediterranean]."

He added that the statue was not necessarily a depiction of someone indigenous to that region.

"Are they sure it's not a god? Not all pictures are self-portraits."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: delights; experts; godsgravesglyphs; stone; warrior
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1 posted on 12/05/2003 5:20:20 PM PST by blam
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To: farmfriend
Ping.
2 posted on 12/05/2003 5:20:58 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Origin Of The Celts - Caucasian, Not European
3 posted on 12/05/2003 5:37:37 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Actually, the origin of all Europeans is the Caucasian area, but these had earlier come from Africa. This has been demonstrated by Y chromosome DNA analysis. (The Y chromosome is passed on unchanged from Father to son, except rare mutations arise every now and then in the chain and are passed on. These mutations act as markers to trace a current Y chromosome back up the chain).
4 posted on 12/05/2003 5:54:37 PM PST by expatpat
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To: blam
Geez, I always taught the celts were from Iberian peninsula in origin.

5 posted on 12/05/2003 5:56:36 PM PST by Smocker
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To: blam
Interesting
6 posted on 12/05/2003 6:09:17 PM PST by BenLurkin (Socialism is Slavery)
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To: blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; abner; Alas Babylon!; Andyman; annyokie; bd476; BiffWondercat; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

7 posted on 12/05/2003 6:12:03 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: expatpat
Gene Study Identifies 5 Main Human Populations
8 posted on 12/05/2003 6:18:43 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
That's interesting. It's a static look at this time, whereas the Y-C study is a historical look at the races as they migrated and evolved from the African bushman, who was the forefather of us all.

I believe most of the world's population, including Amerinds, came from the Caucasian area via different paths. Exceptions are the Australian aborigines and a group in India.

9 posted on 12/05/2003 6:31:44 PM PST by expatpat
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To: blam
"The "Warrior of Lattes" is described in the scholarly journal Antiquity".......


as the founder of Starbucks?
10 posted on 12/05/2003 8:32:33 PM PST by John Beresford Tipton
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To: expatpat
I don't think we have enough data to draw those conclusions. Read the article linked below.

Stranger In A New Land (Archaeology)

11 posted on 12/05/2003 8:50:18 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
The migration I'm referring to took place about 25-50,000 yrs ago (I forget the more-exact number), long after the period your article refers to. The Y-chromosome technique doesn't go past that time because it's based on comparing DNA between living men. The tracking back using Y-chromosome markers goes back from Europeans to the Caucasus to the Bushmen in Africa who use clicks to communicate (they don't look like equatorial Africans, but have faces with hints of Kurd and eskimo in them). If you do the same thing with Amerinds, the track goes back to Siberia and then Caucasus, again.

An Ice Age at that time caused a major drought in Africa and thus migration through the Middle East to the Caucasus where our ancestors stayed for a while, before spreading out into Europe, Siberia (and thence N. America), India, etc.

We are all related to the Bushmen, but of course that doesn't mean there weren't other hominids before the bushmen living around the world. Clearly, there were. Their genes disappeared, however, either because their progeny ran out of sons (e.g., my Y is going to disappear since I only had daughters) or they couldn't compete with the bushmen. The latter is most likely, tho', since a DNA study done on the matriarchal path also leads to one female bush-person (!) as our common ancestor.

12 posted on 12/06/2003 8:29:14 AM PST by expatpat
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To: expatpat
Some support for your ideas?

African Click Language 'Holds Key To Origins Of Earliest Human Speech'

13 posted on 12/06/2003 9:23:10 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
blam -- the site you've posted has a tendency of posting speculation -- interesting reading, but speculation nonetheless. It's punctuated by too much of 'I think's. No hard evidence and too much credence is given to myths in their entirety. For instance, the talkg about Aesir and Vanir is patently incorrect. The Aesir and Vanir are derivative of an old Aryanic religion and finds echoes in Hinduism and the pre-Zoroastrian Irani religions.
14 posted on 02/16/2004 8:06:21 AM PST by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: expatpat
An Ice Age at that time caused a major drought in Africa and thus migration through the Middle East to the Caucasus where our ancestors stayed for a while, before spreading out into Europe, Siberia (and thence N. America), India, etc.

That's a very credible theory and makes a lot of sense -- the Ice Age would also have created the Sahara desert cutting off what would become the non-Afroid groups. Those which remained in the Caucasus would have been seperated from the Mongoloid group, again because of the Ice age in Siberia.
15 posted on 02/16/2004 8:08:40 AM PST by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: expatpat; blam
Expat's theories do make a lot of sense. also, when you think about it, modern day Afroids can be distinguished as Bantu from West Africa and Bushmen and Ethiopians fromt he horn of Africa. The Ethiopians are tall, slim, and don't have the pronounced Afroid features -- flat noses etc. so could be closely related to the Bushmen and to Caucasoids (or then again it could be that since Ethiopia-Somalia is so close to Egypt-Sumeria-india they would have some racial interaction)
16 posted on 02/16/2004 8:11:46 AM PST by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: Cronos
You're very kind, but too kind in ascribing the theory to me. It is not mine, but due to some folks (I don't remember any names) who did Y-chromosome marker tracking in many places in the world. There was a program on PBS about it, which is where I heard it.

It works like this: The Y chromosome is passed from father to son unaltered, since the mother has no Y. However, occasionally, a mutation occurs, and after a string of identical Y chromosomes in succeeding males, there arises one with one small change in it (a marker). This in turn is propagated through many generations until another mutation occurs.

In this way you can track back the chromosomes for two men in different countries to a point where the later different sets of markers do not exist and both men share a common male ancestor. They tracked native Amerinds back to Siberia, then back to Central Asia near Uzhbekastan, (and Europeans back to the same area), and from Central Asia back to this one Bantu tribe in Africa.

17 posted on 02/16/2004 1:10:32 PM PST by expatpat
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To: expatpat
Gene Study Identifies 5 Main Human Populations
18 posted on 02/16/2004 6:18:48 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Thanks, interesting. Of course, the 'markers' in this study are different from the mutation markers I was talking about.

Regarding the posted article as a whole, some folks are really uptight about accepting racial differences. Of course, these are the same people who want to list race on the census form and use race in university admissions.

19 posted on 02/16/2004 6:34:51 PM PST by expatpat
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To: Smocker
Geez, I always taught the celts were from Iberian peninsula in origin.

No. They had moved into the Iberian peninsula but did not originate there.

Originally, the Celts conquered northern and central Iberia. The Iberians then reoccupied what is now the Basque region cutting off the Iberian Celts from their Celtic cousins in Gaul.


20 posted on 02/16/2004 7:21:06 PM PST by Polybius
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