Our Place in the World: Road map leads to darkness ("I am ashamed to be a Muslim"

Seattle PI ^ | 11/14//03 | RUSLAN TOKHCHUKOV

[veronica]

I am ashamed to be a Muslim ... again. I am originally from a Muslim minority in Russia and I was never quite as ashamed of the Soviet Union, which I left as an anti-Communist emigrant long ago, as I am of the Muslim world that makes even the USSR look free and civilized.

Total gender apartheid, treating women worse than animals, tyranny, oppression, intolerance of any kind of free expression and on and on. The Muslim world is the world of no good news. And now, there's yet another sickening, albeit not surprising, headline: "Jews rule the world by proxy, says Malay leader" (P-I, Oct. 17).

Mahathir Mohamad, the Malaysian prime minister, speaking before a gathering of the world's Islamic leaders, invoked the same old, tired explanation of the Muslims' many ills and ailments: the Jewish conspiracy.

Judging by the many historical references he included in his speech, Mohamad read some history but he proved to be absolutely incapable of learning history's lessons. He alluded to Islam's glorious past when the Muslim world thrived economically and culturally and shone in science, medicine and education while the West was backward and savage, wallowing in the misery, famines and plagues of the Dark Ages.

True, but the roles have since reversed. It is the Muslim world in the Dark Ages now, as one can judge by Mohamad's speech and by his audience's reaction to it. The leaders of 57 Muslim countries greeted this hate tirade with a standing ovation and praised it as "a good road map." How pathetic.

A road map where? Deeper into darkness? During the Seven Golden Centuries of Islam, the Muslim world was tolerant of the Jews and provided a haven for hundreds of thousands fleeing the savage persecution in Europe -- a fact Mohamad acknowledged. But now it is just the opposite.

Mohamad noted that the West surged ahead of the Muslims during the Industrial Revolution. But who led this revolution? The English and the Dutch, the only ones in Western Europe who were tolerant to their Jewish communities.

On the other end of the spectrum was the Inquisition nation of Spain, which was totally bypassed by the Industrial Age, just like the Arabs. It was the only country in Europe that had completely "cleansed" itself of Jews. This put the "purified" Spaniards on a 400-year-long downslide into ever-greater corruption, backwardness, poverty and misery. Finally, after a series of shattering military blows from Anglos, both British and American, the Spanish Empire collapsed like a rotten shack.

No, Mohamad, the Jews do not "take over" the most powerful countries in the world. They help those countries that welcome them to become powerful and successful.

One hundred years ago, 1 million Jews fled from Tsarist Russia to the United States after a wave of pogrom atrocities. Russia's loss was the United States' gain. The Russian Empire had violently collapsed in just a decade and the United States, which entered the 20th century as a third-rate power, emerged from it as the world's unchallenged superpower.

Let's ponder the fate of all once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Inquisitor Spain, the Russian Tsarist Empire, the Nazi Reich. Did any one of them not suffer a brutal end?

In the Christians' Bible, there's a part about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people and the entire world history seems to confirm it. Now, whether you are Christian or not, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God's law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted Jews had escaped very bad consequences. I don't think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslims.

This is what we the Umma (the world Muslim community) should pause to think about. Only then might we be able to find our way out of darkness. Otherwise, I am afraid, the Muslim world will be beyond redemption.

Ruslan Tokhchukov lives in Redmond.

[zimdog]

"Henry the VIII did not create a religious or political movement that seeks my death or conversion, nor are my personal freedoms in any danger from any movement created by Henry the VIII."

I take it, therefore, that you're not Catholic.

Or American Indian.

Or the citizen of any number of pre-colonial Africa or South Asian states.

Or a Spanish religious intellectual of the 16th -19th century.

Henry VIII did create a religious and political movement (the Anglican church and anti-Catholic Christian expansionism, respectively) responsible for the persecution of millions and the death of many millions more. That it does not personally persecute YOU and YOUR beliefs (though I have a feeling you don't agree with the mainstream Episcopal church here) doesn't make it any less reprehensible for those who were its vicitms

So, if I can see the evil caused by Henry VIII's religious and political movements and yet still count Anglicans among my best friends, see them as people who truly believe in their faith and seek the good of the world, you should be able to disagree with Islam without smearing Muslims worldwide in blatant contradiction to the facts.

I suspect that you haven't met a Muslim that you would want your sons to emulate might mean that you only choose to see the worst in Islam and Islam in the worst.

Above all, you should be nicer to andak, who is an intelligent person who's trying to help you learn a little more about the world around you.

[zimdog]

"Why not exlpain the meaning of the sword on most islamic countries flags?"

I did a quick review of national flags with swords:

Christian countries:

Angola (machete)
Haiti (bayonets and cannons)

Muslim countries:

Oman (sheathed, it appears)
Saudi Arabia

If these are "most muslim countries" [50% or more of Muslim countries] then what is the world's other Muslim country?

[zimdog]

Didn't Yigal Amir use some weird scriptural misinterpretation to justify murdering Rabin?

[Bob J]

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[Lady Heron]

I take it, therefore, that you're not Catholic.

Or American Indian.

Or the citizen of any number of pre-colonial Africa or South Asian states.

Or a Spanish religious intellectual of the 16th -19th century. .

Henry VIII did create a religious and political movement (the Anglican church and anti-Catholic Christian expansionism, respectively) responsible for the persecution of millions and the death of many millions more. That it does not personally persecute YOU and YOUR beliefs (though I have a feeling you don't agree with the mainstream Episcopal church here) doesn't make it any less reprehensible for those who were its vicitms

No, I am not Catholic. Yes, there is American Indian blood in my family though not enough that we claim to be American Indians. Both sides of my family have been her since before the American Revolution. No I am not the citizen of any pre-colonial Africa or South Asian states. Nor am I a Spanish religious intellectual of the 16th -19th century. And no, I am not a main-line Episcopalian.

As I stated before, Henry the VIII, did not create a religious or political order that in any way threatens my freedom or life in this day and age unlike Mohammed or the others I stated.

[Lady Heron]

I suspect that you haven't met a Muslim that you would want your sons to emulate might mean that you only choose to see the worst in Islam and Islam in the world.

No, at one time I actually gave islam a fair looking at. The more I dug into the religion the less appealing the religion became until I found nothing but disgust for the religion.

As I stated before I have several friends who came from islamic countries who have left islam behind and find then quite charming, but I have never met a muslim man (I have even worked for one) who is still involved with islam who I have ever been able to admire. Condesending, smarmy, untrustworthy, underhanded business dealings and I have never met one whom I would feel safe alone with unarmed. I am sorry but in my search I have yet to find anything I admire about islam, and I was expecting to find good things about the religion at that time.

[Lady Heron]

Above all, you should be nicer to andak, who is an intelligent person who's trying to help you learn a little more about the world around you.

Yes, I should be nicer to the good muslim who has condesended to teach me a little more about the world around me. sarcasm/off

Sorry I spent a year studying and learning all I need to know about islam, 9-11 and all of the other terrorist action since the 70's and the oh so lovely looks into islamic societies (whether they be sunni or shiite) just confirm it.

Excuse my disgust but I will not stand around and not speak up against islam when it is falsely presented in a good light. I will fight it at every corner. If I am never to be andaks or you friend I am sorry but I will not lose sleep over it. I will remain free.

[Lady Heron]

Oman (sheathed, it appears) Saudi Arabia

Hmm...Thought there were more...Do you want to explain the meaning because there is one.

[Lady Heron]

Didn't Yigal Amir use some weird scriptural misinterpretation to justify murdering Rabin?

I honestly have know idea, I have not looked into the subject matter. The importance of this is????

[philosofy123]

First, you did not have to defend the OT. Simply because there will be no end if I quoted barbaric phrases, and you explaining that was because the Hebrews did so or so! The Moslems do the same thing as they attempt to defend their worthless book. I was basically trying to say that all religion INCLUDING CHRISTIANITY, may have lots of violent statements or statements that does not fit in our today life, and hence, the religion leaders need to chose to keep the messed up stuff in and risk losing followers, or de-emphasize the violent stuff, and stress the good stuff to allow the followers to coexist, and live peacefully.

religions are like partisan sport teams, its coach MUST stress to his people winning, and that they are better than the other guy, and if they commit a foul, it is typically unintended, and if the opposing team did the same, it is because they are bad. Once the world realized that similarity between religions and sport or political parties, then most people will learn NOT TAKE THAT STUFF TOO SERIOUSLY.

OK imam, I will fast the month of Ramadan, but I will not hate others who do not wish to fast!

[WinOne4TheGipper]

say that all religion INCLUDING CHRISTIANITY, may have lots of violent statements or statements that does not fit in our today life
How exactly is "turn the other cheek", "pray for your enemies", etc. violent?

[philosofy123]

The statements you have quoted are not violent of course. But lots of other statements are anti women, and for slavery, and for violence. As I said before, the point was not to quote a specific good or bad statement and attempt to explain what it means or what the author had in mind at that time of history. My comment was in general, and was intended to enlist a Moslem to understand that emphasis on the good stuff is better for the believers. I did not intend to offend thin skinned Christians.

Of course, the best thing that Christ has said was for us to love one another, and even love our enemies.

[WinOne4TheGipper]

anti women, and for slavery, and for violence.
anti-women- I have not seen any anti-woman idea in the Christian Bible. Indeed, the Apostle Paul had a deep rewspect for women. Jesus himself treated women with respect.
for slavery- I encourage you to read the book of Philemon. In it, Paul encourages Philemon to accept Onessimus (Philemon's runaway slave), not as a slave, but as an equal.
for violence- I believe the quotes I gave you contradict that.
When looking at the Old Testament, you must remember that those nations the Hebrews conquered where sinful and barbaric nations. For instance, some practiced child sacrifice. The Old Testament Law was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross.

[philosofy123]

So why do the evangalicals preach mostly from the OT. If they think that the NT is what we should be focusing on?

[WinOne4TheGipper]

Which evangelicals are you talking about?

[philosofy123]

All evangelicals, especially the knuckle dragging fried okra type. It is like 90% OT to 10% NT. On the other hand, Catholics use 95% NT, and 5% OT!

[WinOne4TheGipper]

Umm. I guess I'm in an evangelical church. We hardly ever use the Old Testament, but I don't really see what's wrong with it. You've got the Psalms, Song of Solomon, and Proverbs, not to mention the Prophets. The whole point of the Old Testament is that God is slow to anger, but that justice does eventually happen.

[philosofy123]

The OT according to me:

1- God asks Adam and Eve not to eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge? What is wrong with knowledge?

2- God wants Abraham to kill his son---masochist?

3- God loves Abraham-Abraham throw out his wife and child with no credit cards to help them out in the desert?

4- God asked us to cut a piece of our penis out- May be it was a defect in his creation?

5- Moses goes up the mountain for weeks and come back with a rock in his hands--Like there was shortage of rocks on the mountain? He should have come down with a laptop!

I can go on and on about the OT. Remember I have avoided quoting phrases and explaining things. You dragged me in this.

[philosofy123]

Sorry for using the expression "knuckle dragging fried okra type"! It is a funny and expressive description of how obsessed robotic brain washed single issue people are. I am sure you are not. Please forgive my sarcasm.

[WinOne4TheGipper]

The OT according to me:
1- God asks Adam and Eve not to eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge? What is wrong with knowledge?

God asked Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. By not following God's order Adam and Eve put themselves in God's place, a tendency so many of us have nowadays.

2- God wants Abraham to kill his son---masochist?

Read the whole story. God was testing Abraham. God condemns child sacrifice.
3- God loves Abraham-Abraham throw out his wife and child with no credit cards to help them out in the desert?

Read the story. Firstly, Hagar was not Abram's (he was Abram at the time) wife. He committed adultery. God had promised him a son, but he took matters into his own hands. Afterwards, there was bitterness between Sarai and Hagar. Sarai mistreated Hagar and she left. An angel visited Hagar and made her go back. I guess she did. Abram did not force her out.
4- God asked us to cut a piece of our penis out- May be it was a defect in his creation?

That was a part of the sacrifice. It is no longer in effect. Baptism is the new circumcision.
5- Moses goes up the mountain for weeks and come back with a rock in his hands--Like there was shortage of rocks on the mountain? He should have come down with a laptop!

He came down with God's Law in his hand. Why would he come down with a computer? What kind of confusion would that have caused with the ancients?
I can go on and on about the OT. Remember I have avoided quoting phrases and explaining things. You dragged me in this.
Please don't. I really want to continue about my regularly scheduled FReeping.