Is it just me or is Atheism a religion?

Philosphy Forum ^ | FR Post 12-6-2003 | "A Sloth"

[vannrox]

This is a subject near to my heart and my own spiritual journey, and I'd like to discuss it with as many intelligent minds as possible as I ponder it. It seems to me as though the most basic, intrinsic aspect of a religious philosophy is faith. I have been talking to a lot of Christians lateley, so I'm not sure if that is the prevailing veiw among people of other persuasions. Anyways, it seems to me as though a religion can really be boiled down to beliving that it is THE answer, and it seems to me as though atheism is no exception.

But this is where I came to realize there many different brands of thought given the title of Atheist, each with their own twists. Here are some categories that i have run across, and my opinion(just roll with me on this one):

Spiritual Atheists Some people claim to be "spiritual" but not "religious," disavowing belief in a god persay in favor of just not thinking about the issue. It sounds just lazy to me. They get the "all good people go to heaven" feeling without defining good, heaven, or even feeling itself. This may work for some, but it seems to lack any real thought into the matter.

Non-Practicing Atheists And there are the "Catholics" like my parents who dont buy a word the church says, but are so afraid of what it means to be atheist that they desperately cling to a religion that offers them no real meaning.

Deist Atheists Some people use Atheism to describe a sense of disbelief in the major established world religions, which to me sounds like it could still be a throwback to the deism of the 18th century. Basically it can be summed up as: There is some kind of god, hes a pretty decent guy, dont be an ass and everything will turn out ok somehow, once again, a little too lazy for me.

Orthodox Atheists Then there are the Atheists so absolutly steadfast in their disbelief in god that they would have made an excellent Christian in another life (THAT's an interesting turn of phase!). They dont buy the proof that the various religions offer, but the seem to narrowmindedly rule out any possiblities except absolute soulless oblivion. I have a friend like this, and i have yet to figure out how he can 100% FOR SURE rule out a higher power of any type...

Agnostics This is the only one that really makes sense to me. I mean, maybe there's a god. Probably not one of the big religion's vengeful, mythical "gods" with their spotty and doubtfully accurate "historical records," I doubt reincarnation that doesnt work well with the increasing entropy of the universe, and the evidence for it is even less credible than the rest ... But prove to me god's not just hiding...

Thats where i'm at right now. I would appreciate any input, even religious propaganda. I want to know the truth, even if it means the complete destruction of my current schema for faith.

I would even go so far as to recommend two such books, The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith, to anyone who is openminded enough to consider Christianity. I almost bought into it after reading those, but to me, there are still holes (i'll probably talk about those later) If your already Christian, they will strengthen your faith, and if not, they will rock your world...

[skraeling]

Funny enough though, Satanists have a religion, yet they are atheists because they do not believe in God

That works for me. It's all tied up in the definitons, and as we know, "He who controls the definitions controls history."

[biblewonk]

Does it ever occur to you just how childish, inane, and downright silly the concept of hell really is?

Yes the whole gospel of Christ is foolishness as it says in 1 Corinthians. But it is also true and hell is part of that gospel. Would a loving God make a Hell for people who He loved but didn't love Him? That is the classic question among free choice and predestination believers. Yes it seems a difficult question.

The more direct issue to a non-believer is, do you really think that you exist apart from God. Do you really think that life is an accident and that soon you will be dead. The bible says that if Jesus isn't raised from the dead than we might as well eat and drink and party because tomorrow, we die. This is the morbid reality of the athiest. I joined the Army as an athiest and asked for that on the religion field of my dog tag.

[wizardoz]

Atheism is a religion, they just hate to admit it. Until you can PROVE God does not exist then you're working in the realm of faith my friend.

You can't prove a negative. But if one were to try, they'd first have to ask you to define "God."

So you'd define "God" as an all-powerful being.

Then they'd say, "you mean, He can do the impossible?"

And you'd say "Yes."

Then they'd say that if the impossible can be done, by anything or anyone, it's not impossible.

If you say "No," then He's not "all-powerful."

In other words, when you really look at the concept of "God," it's internally incoherent and makes no sense.

[lelio]

That's why religions exist.

There was a post on FR about a popular columnist's conversion to Christianity while attending Columbia (Prager?). In a nutshell: he equated the hedonistic actions with not fearing a God. Ergo, God brings structure to the earth.

The problem I had with the essay is this assumes that man's an evil beast to start off with that needs to be whipped into shape. And the only way to do this is to setup a framework where you believe in a higher power than yourself.

How is this different from the divine right of kings? They can justify their position as look at what the common peasant does: rolls around in the mud and can barely feed himself.

A theist can argue that the king is just another earthly bound creature that's prone to the same faults as man. But their answer in believing something that's not of this world isn't much better. Its another "believe in this ruler ... however this one you can't see."

[ASA Vet]

buddhists believe in the supernatural, (reincarnation,) and the individuals
ability to effect that supernatural result.
They don't however worship or revere a deity, or the supernatual, so it
would not be in the religion subgroup of supernaturlists.

[Tribune7]

There is no difference between disbelief or belief.

You believe there is no God. That's faith -- although you can argue that faith and religion are not the same.

[lelio]

This is the morbid reality of the athiest.

As opposed to the 'reality' of an other world?

[Tribune7]

Does it ever occur to you just how childish, inane, and downright silly the concept of hell really is?

I believe hell exists.

[jwalsh07]

Atheism is simply a belief that there is no God.

The religion practiced by some, but not all, atheists is secular humanism and the worst of those embrace moral relativism as their catechism.

All atheists are not secular humanists and all secular humanists are not moral relativists but the ones who are exhibit a disdain for any other religion but their own that borders on psychosis.

[MineralMan]

"There is no difference between disbelief or belief.
You believe there is no God. That's faith -- although you can argue that faith and religion are not the same."

Oh, there's a difference between belief and disbelief. You may not recognize it, but it's there. In any case, I have no religion whatever. I don't mind at all if you do, but I have none.

[balrog666]

Let me rephrase #53 for you:

It's like this little commie grad student over in the Education department. "Everybody has an god! Even not having a god is having a god!"

[Junior_G]

I'm glad you mentioned those that claim to be spiritual but not religious. That describes just about every liberal I know. Ask those same people if they believe in an afterlife, and they'll respond with the dumbest possible answer, which is: "I believe that each person has an afterlife that corresponds to their own personal belief system."

[BykrBayb]

"Atheism is just a lack of belief in a deity"

No, that would include agnostics. Don't atheists have a firm belief in the nonexistence of a deity? Yes. And don't they push their religious views just as vehemently as the holy rollers? Sometimes. Is their belief based on proven scientific facts? No, it's based on faith. They have absolute faith in their beliefs. That's all the proof they need. Sure sounds like religion to me.

[Greek]

The 1 minute refutation of Atheism: There is no such thing. The premise of Atheism assumes a universal negative about God's existence, which makes it logically inconsistent:

1. Atheists say, like fools, "there is no God."
2. In order to make this statement, one must be Omniscient (all knowing) to know whether God exists in all the universe.
3. If one is Omniscient, they are God.
4. So there is a God, it's the alleged Atheist.

The same is not logically inconsistent concerning believers. We say, "there is a God, and we know Him personally." If we know Him, we can logically say He exists. A universal positive does not suffer from the same syllogistic flaw.

[xm177e2]

I don't believe in atheists. There's no such thing.

So then you are an aatheist?

Belief in God = theism
Disbelief in God = atheism
Disbelief in the Disbelief of God => aatheism.

I suppose you've never been to China: that's a country full of millions of atheists. But you don't have to fly all that far out to meet a few of us. We're all around you, whether you like it or not.

[Greek]

You may think you exist, but you are logically inconsistent. If a charaterization is illogical, it cannot be a truism. Why don't you attempt to refute my logic? Because you can't. Atheists are their own god. Agnostics are at least logically consistent.

[GreenAccord]

Ping for a later "I gotta read this" time.

[MineralMan]

"Disbelief in the Disbelief of God => aatheism.

I suppose you've never been to China: that's a country full of millions of atheists. But you don't have to fly all that far out to meet a few of us. We're all around you, whether you like it or not.
"

Actually, anatheists would be a better term, and can be pronouned more easily. But you are correct. Atheists are all around. We're a tiny minority of the population, but there's one virtually on every block.

I remember this guy I knew in the USAF. I saw his dog tags one day, and they said "Protestant" where religion was specified. He was a good friend of mine, so I asked him when the last time was he attended church, prayed, or thought about his religious beliefs. Pretty much never on all three was his answer.

So I asked him why he specified "protestant." He thought a minute and then told me that he didn't know, really. He knew he wasn't a Catholic or a Jew, so I guess he figured that "protestant" was pretty much the other option.

Turns out he was an atheist, really. I asked if he believed in a God, and he said not really. I asked him if he believed in Heaven and Hell and got the same response.

He just hadn't given what to call himself any thought.

[Flightdeck]

"In other words, when you really look at the concept of "God," it's internally incoherent and makes no sense."


the thought experiment doesn't work if nothing is impossible.

[whattajoke]

I believe hell exists.

I don't. Friends?