Teacher tells kids Santa is 'make-believe' (1st graders)

AP ^ | Thursday, December 4, 2003

[presidio9]

Sandra Jolly said her 6-year-old son's Christmas was spoiled when his teacher told the first-grade class Monday that "Santa Claus is make-believe."

"He had this sad, lost puppy dog look on his face. This unhappy, empty look," Jolly said. "He said his teacher informed the entire class that Santa is make-believe."

[Snidely Whiplash]

I agree with you to let kids be kids and let them grow up at the proper pace. But the question is still, is it right to lie to have your fun and to let them have fun?

Yes. Foam all you want, it's not going away. Get over it.

Snidely

[Snidely Whiplash]

Except, if a kid learns about sex and decides to experiment with it, he or she could end up dead or with serious consequences. We withhold the truth from kids so their studies won't be interrupted by changing diapers.

My parents said,"When you're old enough to know about that, we'll have a talk about it.

I think "old enough to get pregnant or get someone pregnant" = "old enough to know about sex."

Snidely

[CajunConservative]

The teacher used poor judgement. She should know that most 6 year olds believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and it's not her place to inform them otherwise. She used poor judgement and should be teaching older kids if she has a problem with the idea of child hood fantasy figures.

Personally the best punishment would be for her to get a several lumps of coal and have to read the entire "A Christmas Carol" so she could maybe see her scrooge tendencies.

[Snidely Whiplash]

My children get to help me bake a cake and decorate it with a birthday theme for Jesus. We sing happy birthday to Jesus, and then we leave a piece of cake and a glass of milk out for Santa. They have the best of both worlds.

That's cool! Although, in a way, it reminds me of the Christmas Day scene in "Full Metal Jacket," where the recruits celebrate Christmas in boot camp by singing "Happy Birthday" to Jesus. A little bit of a difference, I'll grant you...

Snidely

[It's me]

Of course Santa Claus is real!!!

These people who kdon't believe haven't seen the movie!

[FLAMING DEATH]

Such a long post for such a short question.

"A great deal of reach, for very little net gain."

I suspect that I will walk away from you with information you know to be false, specifically because you opted not to leave me with factual knowledge. The end results are no less deceitful, or pernicious.

"If you knowingly allowed a child to walk away mistakenly believing you were a mega-millionaire -- even if you never explicitly stated such -- when you could just as easily have corrected them: then, yes... like it or not, that IS lying by ommission."

In other words, if someone has a mistaken impression that YOU never perpetuated or even suggested, and you walk away without setting them straight, then you are lying, right?

This is exactly what you did in response to my question. You, by your own definition, lied. And I can make you do it over and over again.

" and the topic, kindly recall, is that of lying to children"

The topic, kindly recall, is whether or not a teacher should tell a kid there is no Santa Claus. We're dealing with one of the MANY issues that have cropped up in a discussion of the main issue. You're limiting that discussion because you believe that this is where you have the best chance of proving a point. I never confined the argument to that. Lying is lying, whether to children, adults, whatever. I even mentioned in one of my posts that it would be just as wrong to lie to an adult as to a child.

"it-all-depends-on-what-you-think-"is"-is hairsplitting, when it comes to the topic of confessing to that much, at the very least."

If it was indeed hairsplitting, you'd have had no problem answering my question. Not answering, when there is no compelling moral reason to do so, is not lying. I wouldn't answer either if I were you, but I would just tell me to go to hell, because it was none of my business. That wouldn't be lying.

"It becomes increasingly evident, in plain point of fact, that this whole feigned, throat-clutching "good lord, you mean you'd lie to a CHILD?!?"

You're defining the argument the way you see it. If it makes you feel any better, rest assured that I feel that lying to anyone is wrong.

"Otherwise: they wouldn't be so feverishly intent upon fine-printing their way out of the logical end result realities of such a knock-kneed intellectual stance, when cornered."

It's not fine print. It is a legitimate distiction...refusing to answer a question is not the same as partially answering a question with intent to mislead. If it were, anyone at any time could coerce you into "lying", much as I did with you. By your own definition, you lied to me.

"It is your "side," here -- the ones claiming that the teacher in question (remember her?) had some sort of moral responsibility to answer, truthfully, "No, there is no Santa""

With all due respect, sir, you're deluded if you think you're going to hold me responsible for my "side". I stand on what I have said, and not what anyone else has said, although I may agree with things that others stated here.

"and the parents of the kids in question, the moral obligation not to "mislead" them on the whole Santa question in the first place -- who are making increasingly far-fetched and absolute claims of "moral imperatives," insofar as truthful responses to any and all questions are concerned."

Wrong again, and you just showed that you clearly don't understand my point. There is no imperative to answer at all. You will NOT find that in any of my posts. That's why, if you'll read back through my posts, you'll see that I said the teacher was wrong to tell the kids anything.

"Do you really want me to go back and start quoting, chapter-and-verse, all the hysterical anti-Santa ululations to that effect?"

Feel free. You won't find anything in any of my posts that suggests that I believe people should go around telling kids about Santa Claus. And if you quote "all the hysterical anti-Santa ululations" that were voiced by anyone other than myself, it won't do any good.

I'm still waiting for you to deal directly with the question that I asked you, because you did not in this post. A simple, one line response will do nicely.

[martin_fierro]

I still believe in you.

<|:)~

[FLAMING DEATH]

Yep.

[FLAMING DEATH]

Your point being...?

P.S. I noticed you did not provide specific, concrete examples of how I put words into people's mouths.

It is easy to sit and ask questions or make comments about the things that others say. It is harder to defend your own, ill conceived words.

[Snidely Whiplash]

Never in my life have I seen an adult in my family pick up Santa, hold him up to a child and say "This is a real person".

Well, how on Earth could they pick him up? He's such a fatty...

Snidely

[Tamzee]

I CANNOT believe this thread....

We not only did Santa, we had Borrowers living under the kitchen floor for a while ;-)

[drjack]

I concur with what you said. The question becomes, should Ms. Crodner be fired for her actions as Sandra Jolly has demanded?

[onyx]

ROFLMAO!

Santa "victims" galore!

I would never have imagined we had such insanity here on FR, but this thread is a real eye-opener.

Howlin, you have done an outstanding job of fending-off the truly whacked.

[Howlin]

[Howlin]

Well, I have seen the light; first thing in the morning at Little Gym, I shall inform all of them that their parents are liars and that there is no such thing as Santa Claus; leaving aside the fact that they only know him as "Ho Ho" at this stage, I feel it's my duty as a good, conservative grandmother to tell them the truth right now so they won't waste one more minute of their young lives under the misconception that somebody is going to bring them gifts.


After all, we all *know* that the word "Santa Claus" isn't in the Constitution -- and isn't being able to say what isn't named in the Constitution what being a real, true conservative means?

*Snark*

[nopardons]

Christ was NOT born on December 25th of any year. As a matter of fact, December 25th was celebrated as the day Sol Invictus, or Mithra was born, by pagans all over the then known world and specifically, by those who were members of Mithraism.

The three Wisemen,who are usually represented in most Christian celebrations of Christmas, didn't find Jesus until he was THREE YEARS OLD , not in a manger, and no one has ever been able to figure out exactly when, during the year, they came upon him.

Outside of going to a church service, on Christmas day ( and most hymns/carols sung at that time are filled with misrepresentations ! ),there is nothing whatsoever " Christian " about our celebrations. But, it could be far worse...we could still be celebrating Christmas, wildly, as was done prior to Cromwell's outlawing of ALL of that.

It wasn't until the Christmas of 1843 and the publication of Charles Dickons' " A CHRISTMAS CAROL ", that Christmas celebrations, as we know them today, came into being.

And as far as American celebrations, we have incorporated celebratory activities from all over the world, thus enjoying the BEST of them, and starting a few of our own.

For all of you sourpusses out there, just shut up, leave the rest of us to celebrate as we wish, don't destroy others' children/grandchildrens' Christmas, and keep or don't keep Christmas as you wish.

[FLAMING DEATH]

"Howlin, you have done an outstanding job of fending-off the truly whacked."

As well as doing an outstanding job with name-calling and making groundless accusations that he refuses to support when pressed!

Truly a model for debaters everywhere.

[nopardons]

Just caught sight of this abomination of a thread and the replies and all I can say is : .........." BAH HUMBUG " !

Fr is turning into a rather strange place. Perhaps the disaffected,nasty, and purile posters should start their own sites and leave the rest of us alone. :-)

[nopardons]

I can't believe it either! Makes me wonder just who really is signing on . :-(

[onyx]

I still believe in Santa Claus, but nowadays when I sit on his lap he has a certain gleam in his eye that assures me I'm going to get everything I want. And I do. :)