Posted on 12/01/2003 4:56:31 PM PST by blam
Ferocious gun battle that left no bodies
(Filed: 02/12/2003)
Americans say 54 attackers died in the fiercest engagement since the war ended while Iraqis insist that eight civilians were killed by reckless US fire, writes Jack Fairweather
Wrecked cars and bullet-riddled shopfronts testified to the battle. But in the streets of Samarra yesterday there was little evidence of what the Americans described as the biggest engagement since the end of the Iraqi war.
Burned out cars following the fighting in Samarra, north of Baghdad
US forces insisted they had killed 54 Iraqi attackers after two of their armoured convoys came under co-ordinated attack while delivering new currency to local banks on Sunday. But local people and a hospital doctor reported only eight dead, who they insisted were mainly civilians, including an Iranian pilgrim.
It was impossible to reconcile the two versions of the battle. The US military acknowledged that the death toll was estimated - rather than confirmed - on the debriefings of soldiers and no bodies had been collected.
The firefight began at 1.20pm on Sunday when the convoys entered the city from separate locations carrying money for a currency exchange programme. Following a previous withdrawal agreement by US forces, they were the first coalition vehicles to enter the city centre in over a week.
Following recent attacks, the convoy's jeeps and humvees were escorted by tanks and armoured personnel carriers.
Their caution proved well-founded. One convoy was hit by a roadside bomb shortly after entering the town, Iraqi witnesses said, although it went on to the bank.
At 1.30pm, soldiers began delivering three billion Iraqi dinars (more than £100,000) of new currency to the Rafidain bank in the town centre. A cordon of tanks and soldiers on rooftops were on alert.
As both convoys prepared to leave, the Fedayeen, a militia formed by Saddam Hussein, attacked with rocket-propelled grenades, mortar and small arms fire from other rooftops.
At the second bank on the edge of the commercial district, insurgents leapt from cover firing rockets, a witness said. A spokesman for the 4th Infantry Division said: "American soldiers were struck by heavy and sustained fire from separate locations. US soldiers returned fire and the attackers were overwhelmed."
The attacks lasted less than 20 minutes, with troops rapidly supported by four Apache attack helicopters. The US military said that two teams of up to 30 fedayeen were involved.
Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, a US military spokesman, said one person was detained.
Asked about the bodies of the 54 militants said to have been killed, he said: "I would suspect that the enemy would have carried them away and brought them back to where their initial base was."
Though the attack was repulsed, US officers said it marked a new stage in the insurgency, showing greater levels of co-ordination.
Captain Andy Deponai, whose tank was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG), said: "Up to now you've seen a progression. Initially, it was hit and run, single RPG shots on patrols, then they started doing volley fire, multiple RPG ambushes, and now this is the first well co-ordinated one.
"Here it seems they had the training to stand and fight."
On the streets of Samarra yesterday shoppers were out in force and the US military had retreated again. At the Rafidain bank, the firefight had left several wrecked cars, a smattering of bullet holes in shopfronts and one building damaged by small arms fire.
Down a narrow side alley facing the bank stood three wrecked cars, two struck by tank rounds, the third dotted with bullet holes. There was no obvious sign that anyone had been in the vehicles.
Omar Mehdi, a 27-year-old teacher who lives in the street, said he had parked the car there 30 minutes before the attack.
His father forlornly held up the burnt cinders of a copy of the Koran that had been on the dashboard of the car. "No one was killed in the car, thank God," he said.
Outside the mosque that stands at one end of the street, a tank round had landed on a Mitsubishi car. According to Iraqis an Iranian pilgrim and two other people were killed.
"We heard the shooting and everyone began running, there was a terrible traffic jam and people were desperately trying to get out of their cars to escape," said one local shopkeeper.
At the scene of the second attack, a clothes shop two hundred yards away had been burnt out, although no one was injured. Two nearby buildings had also been targeted by American tank gunners.
The attacks had left an ugly mood in the town, where locals were unanimous in condemning indiscriminate firing by the Americans.
"They are the most malicious people. They are not educated, they are barbarians. They said they would bring us democracy but they scare women and children. We will resist them to the depth of our soul," said Rashid Jasem, 38, a hardware shop owner, whose store was peppered with bullet holes.
Iraqi witnesses claimed that tanks fired a round at workers from a drug factory as they left work at 2.00pm. One woman was killed and 18 injured. A crater from the shell and a pool of blood remained nearby.
They said four cars were also hit in the parking area of the hospital and a nearby mosque was shelled, killing two. Dr Faleh Hassan Asamara, on duty at the hospital, said: "The Americans have done a lot of shooting but I don't think the number of dead they claimed were killed."
It's all our fault, eh? You're working so hard to apologize for the actions of these people. Why is that?
If they took over his shop, he should be thankful they are gone. He was not shelled and fired upon if he was not part of the attack. He did not lose his livelyhood, his shop has some bullet holes. He is not angry at the attackers, he is angry at the guys who got rid of them. If he wants vendetta, he should go after the cause, not the solution. Unless, of course, the family member was in the group that attacked. And as far as a cultural thing, would he be talking this way if Saddam had killed his family member?
What would I have done? I would have thanked the troops for killing the bad guys, and thanked my lucky stars I only had to worry about bullet holes to plug, and not the Fedeyen taking over my shop, or killing my family. I would say, Next time, I will help the troups before it gets to a fight, and let them know where the bad guys are. Then I won't have bullet holes any more.
What would you have done? Tell the troups to hold their fire and be killed so they won't put any bullet holes in the hardware store? Don't fire, you might cause a vendetta? Don't kill anyone because they may have family members who might get mad?
Those tactics were tried in the last few months, and have not worked. More of our boys were lost. The only thing they have done is allowed the insurgents the opportunity to regroup and intimidate the civilians. If we are serious about the mission, we are going to have to get serious about accomplishing it.
That does not mean shooting for its own sake. If you have heard any of the reports, it was strongly emphasised that we do not shoot indiscriminately. We fire back when we are fired upon. That is as it should be, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Becki
Yep. The idiotic reporters even noted that the town appeared "back to normal" when they arrived the following day. This whole episode is a Rorschach test for latent anti-Americanism. Those who think "something is wrong here" are sympathetic to the Iraqi guerrilla cause. BTW, I opened up another window to get that quote and saw that a certain person already replied to my message with yet another anti-American claim ("our military lied [forever]" and "Do you love the Gubmint"). Like I said, it's a Rorschach test.
They had hours and hours to clear their dead and wounded.
Our military lied in the Civil War, in the war of 1898, in WWI, WWII, and Korea, and I see no reason why to believe them here. Do you love the Gubmint? They tell you the truth right?
Paging Mr. Rorschach! Aren't you the same person who posted a bunch of garbage about the Philippines war? You know, the garbage about our troops killing 200,000+ Filipino civilians in cold blood ('face to face' or something equally sinister). I shot down your anti-American rant by quoting your own source that the deaths were due to disease and famine. Of course, then you claimed your own source was lying about that part.
So far, you seem to be the one having trouble telling the truth. Come on, admit it. You're dying to call our current military a bunch of baby killers. You've done the same for previous generations.
How any Americans could think this war was "defensive" in nature is beyond me and most sane people. New England!?- we might have to think about some other things- secession being one of them!
Ah. I thought as much. Especially since you would take the word of Iraqi insurgents over our troups.
However, your argument is further flawed. You say we took away their guns. Then where did the "civilians" get their fire arms when we began to "indiscriminately shoot civilians"? Once they took up arms against our boys, there were no longer civlilians.
Further, read part of an eyewitness report.
Sgt. 1st Class Robert Hollis knew there was trouble even before the shooting started. As he stood guard in his M1-A1 Abrams tank outside a bank in this Sunni Muslim town, the usually busy streets suddenly emptied Sunday. Men hurried down back alleys, some running. Women dragged their children away from the positions of U.S. troops.
Then, through his scope, Hollis said he saw a man lift a rocket-propelled grenade launcher to his shoulder, aiming at him and his crew of three. What followed was perhaps the bloodiest engagement since the U.S. occupation of Iraq began in April.
These people knew ahead of time. No one took over their shop against their will.
You call it a crime of agression. I call it taking it to the enemy. There is much evidence of Al Queda in Iraq. And, as once stated by a great American, "If you harbor the terrorists, you will share in their fate".
This is no more a crime of agression than it was to go to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor. Oh. Excuse me. Our military lied about that one, too. Right?
Defensive? Where did the September 11 hijackers learn hijacking? Can you say Salman Pak?
I reject your definition and claim to sane.
And you can hope for the Holy Father to pray. I am on my own knees doing my own praying, for our boys and the success of their mission.
Becki
Not unlike the use of children in Rwanda, where "wounded little boys" hacked people to death with machetes.
??
Becki
He said on TV ads that only a vial of toxin can kill millions and make 9/11 look like nothing.
But if that is the case why don't we have 130,000 troops checking every container that comes into this COUNTRY!
I WILL BLAME EVERY MEMBER OF THIS FORUM WHO SUPPORTED THIS STUPID WAR IN IRAQ WHILE IGNORING TRUE "HOMELAND SECURITY" JUST FOR PARTY LOYALTY IF AN ATTACK OCCURS IN THE USA THE COMES EVEN CLOSE TO 9/11 LEVEL CASUALTIES!
Then who do you blame for 9/11??? Everyone on this forum, or the people who perpetrated it?
You say "when Americans are killed by the hundreds of thousands in Boston or New York...". Not if, when. Do you know something we should know?
It is true that one vial can kill thousands if not millions, depending on what it contained and how it was delivered. However, I would not want to sit around and wait for it to happen. I would try to prevent it from happening. And if taking the ability of the nut jobs to try it accomplished that, you bet I'd go for it. Going fetal ain't gonna do it.
Becki
Burkemanl! Ignorant apologist! Claims 200,000 civilians were killed by Teddy Roosevelt and the evil American Army. He conveniently forgets that his own source for the 200,000 number says that they died "largely because of famine and disease".
Cancel your subscription to "The Nation" magazine and grow, buy, or steal a brain.
Instead of cringing in the corner as you suggest, Bush is taking the fight into the terrorists' own lands. The idea, which seems to have escaped you, is that we want to make them more concerned about their own skin in their own countries than about attacking us here in the USA. Where do you think that Al Qaeda would get that "vial of toxin", anyway?
The terrorists' only hope is for useless idiots here in the USA to stop our offensive war against them. They rely on people here to libel and slander our military in an attempt to weaken our will. They rely on people here to fall for propaganda like our military only managed to kill "civilians" in a battle involving AK-47s and RPGs. They rely on people here to apologize for their attacks on our military.
Just to make things perfectly clear: when I write "our military" I mean the United States Armed Forces. I have no idea who you're referring to when you write "our military".
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