Posted on 11/28/2003 1:49:27 PM PST by LibWhacker
Question for you regarding the first sentence: why would we not be the first in this area to reach this point in technology? The second sentence also raises some questions: if the traffic existed, would we be able to observe it? Would such traffic want to be observed? I would imagine a race that possesed that advanced of a technology would also be able to avoid our relatively simple methods of detection. Then there are the problems of applying human logic and questions to a system that includes non-human entities.
As Sagan repeatedly told us, we are the lowest, most recent, Johnny-come-lately "intelligent" species. The Sun is a 3rd generation star. There has been ample time for the rise of civilizations far more advanced than ours. Imagine our technology in 10,000--or 100,000 years (if we survive). Thus pretty much everyone "else"--if there is anyone--has technology far, far beyond ours.
" The second sentence also raises some questions: if the traffic existed, would we be able to observe it?"
Eventually one would land on the lawn of the White House. We would see (e.g.) Cherenkov radiation or other "signs" of their passage.
"Would such traffic want to be observed?"
A single race or "Galactic Federation" might have reasons for not being observed: the old "we are in a game preserve" argument. But if intelligence is common and widespread, eventually there will be one or a hundred civilizations that give the finger (or tentacle) to the "rules" and makes contact anyway.
--Boris
Unless SR and GR truly limit travel to below c (which to date looks like the case), meaning all of the exotic technology in the universe would still leave you "stuck" within your solar system (unless you devise a generation ship or use the Lorenz Transformation to "get there"). Either one is pretty much a one-way journey. So we may find that solar system exploration (other than EM and gravity observations) is the only viable option.
So there may be hundreds or even thousands or intelligent species, however, there would not be an interstellar civilization/galactic federation.
If you use a map from your home world, it will seem as if you're going much faster than c. If you use a relativity map, you still get the benefit of time dilation. A 1g acceleration will get you going pretty fast if it can be sustained over a period of months or years.
Remember the old von-Neumann argument: even at 5% of "C" there has been plenty of time to visit every star in the galaxy. The high pay-off is to build self-replicating probes which construct copies of themselves at the destination, download their memories, and then each takes off at 0.05c for another random star. Eventually a scion staggers home by random walk and dumps the collected data of all its ancestors. Huge pay-off for a small initial investment. If we can think of this, super-intelligent ETs would also--and there's be a traffic jam at (e.g.) Sol.
No reason for a probe not to announce itself once it finds intelligence; quite the contrary. There is very little down- side for the sending civilization.
Plus, who says ETs have to have lifetimes limited to a few decades...?
--Boris
???!!??
A MAP?!?!
"If you use a relativity map, you still get the benefit of time dilation. A 1g acceleration will get you going pretty fast if it can be sustained over a period of months or years."
1 g = 1.032 ly/(year)2. However, neglecting Einstein, each kilogram travelling at 0.99999c will have 4.89x1017 joules of kinetic energy. Since a year is roughly (pi)x107 seconds, this works out to roughy 1.5 megawatt-years per kilogram. Call it two for various losses.
If you are carrying your propulsion with you, it must weigh much less than a kilogram and have a similarly small volume. The engineering problem (ignoring relativity!) is to stuff two 1,000-MW nuclear power plant into (say) 100 grams and a few cubic centimeters. Scale up until you hit 'enterprise'.
--Boris
We have been down this road before. :-). I don't see a race squandering the precious resources of its own solar system with no practical benefit. Remember a self-replicating probe would "evolve" like any other "life form". I think a races time, effort, and cost would be better spent on more complex observatories than random space probes. The other rub, is how do these probes replicate? Where is the energy to not only do this but to get back out of the gravity well of either the star or object it used to make the replication?
I just don’t buy it. :-)
Plus, who says ETs have to have lifetimes limited to a few decades...?
I wonder. Remember out Sun is either a second or third generation star. If the life spans of an organism were much longer than ours, would evolution be slowed enough to preclude intelligent life?
Wild speculation warning:
If we could ever develop something analogous to Star Trek's "beam me up" technology, so we could convert people to an EM signal and transmit them somewhere at lightspeed, then the transit time for the travelers would seem instantaneous. All we'd need is a reception station at the other end (something Star Trek somehow seems to avoid).
To create a network of reception stations, we'd need to send ships the slow way, perhaps they'd be robotic, and have them assemble receivers at desired (or even random) locations. That's the first phase, and it would take a few million years to get this infrastructure built over a good chunk of the galaxy.
But when it's finally built -- actually while it's being built, as far as it extends -- we could be traveling around as EM signals. Such transmissions might not look all that different from natural light, so they'd be undetectable, unless we were looking for them.
Indeed we have. Firstly, a civilization with 10,000 or 100,000 years of technology would not regard such a probe as a big investment. Secondly, they replicate using 'local' resources as possible. Some destinations will not permit replication; that is why it is wise to send ~100 probes rather than one or two. You expect attrition. (You also expect geometric explosion in the numbers that DO make it)...These are self-replicating robots, and there is little reason to expect 'evolution' unless built in. They have firmware or hardware programs on how to build an offspring and probably have nanotechnology to "make it so". As to the energy question, that is the least of their worries. Probes are not in a hurry. They can gather He3 or use solar sails, or other technologies we cannot foresee. Reaching 0.05c might even be possible by patiently exploiting repeated slingshots in the current system.
--Boris
Aargh.
There are two ways to do this: (1) "record" the position and state of every atom in the transportee and send the information. At the other end (how did you get there?) you have a big tank of atoms and build them up into an exact copy of the guy back home. Now you have two guys, both with the same SSN and bank account, same DNA, same fingerprints...so you murder the original. Hmm.
(2) You convert the victim into energy and send him that way. That's gonna hurt. Also there is a distinct danger of blowing up the Earth because a 100-kg person bears (E=mc2) 9x1018 joules of energy. A big catcher's mitt to catch that beam...
But even worse, once you catch it, you have to DEAL with it; convert it (somehow) back into mass. Presumably the instructions for making the person ride the BEAM on a subcarrier or something. Catchers' mitt better be big and good, otherwise you will vaporize the target planet.
And both schemes leave you (the transportee) at the mercy of the inverse-square law...you're melting, melting (like the Wicked Witch of the West) with distance, pretty soon the "BEAM" looks like a flashlight...then a firefly...then...poof! eaten by the redshift. Better take out some insurance either way!
--Boris
As for the fact that our intrepid travelers would be duplicated, that's probably true. I see no need to kill the one at the transmission station. There's not much chance of his ever encountering the far-away clone. There's another duplication problem caused when (and if) he sends himself to that same destination more than once. I'll let the moralists of the future deal with that one.
If you haven't read it yet, check out the sci-fi novel "Code of the Lifemaker", by James P. Hogan. It's out of print, but is pretty easy to find in any used bookstore.
It examines that exact scenario, and does it very well. From one of his discussions about the book:
Then, one day, I was invited to attend a summer study that NASA was hosting at the Goddard Spaceflight Center, where various people from the agency, industry, and academia got together to discuss future space mission possibilities and the roles that computers would play in them. One concept we talked about was that of a self-replicating lunar factory, built from components fabricated out of lunar materials by an initial "seed" mission of advanced robots. The factory would build more robots, which in turn would construct more factories, and eventually the scheme would grow itself into a fully self-supporting operation capable of carrying out a vigorous export business to Earth. In fact, calculations showed that in twenty years the output could exceed the entire production of Earth's manufacturing history!On the flight back to California, I at last made the connection that here was the way to get our electromechanical biosphere started. Imagine a scaled-up operation of that kind, developed by an advanced alien race, operating over interstellar distances to exploit the resources of distant planets. One of the missions goes seriously wrong, and the world of replicating machines that it spawns "mutates." Then, after a million years, say, have gone by . . .
I started writing CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER the day after I got back. A number of readers have written to say that the Prologue was worth the price of the book. The world that the messed-up alien mission ended up on was Titan, largest of the moons of Saturn, and the strange inhabitants who now dwell there are discovered in the course of exploration by humans.
The story also prompted lots of requests for a sequel. This appeared in 1995, entitled THE IMMORTALITY OPTION.
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