Posted on 11/20/2003 4:54:20 AM PST by truthandlife
I was watching the Tony Blair and President Bush press conference and an American reporter asked a question on the lines of do you believe Muslims and Christians worship the same God.
President Bush said that Christians and Muslims worship the same God!!!!
I'm not arguing that a man can get to heaven by good works or good character. I'm saying that a man may have God's grace in his heart and mind, even if he is not speaking about it in the way of a particular church or a particular reading of the Bible. I believe God is real, and one's actual realtionship with Him is the important thing, not the words one chooses.
Of course I chose familyofman as an example to make a point. I don't know the gentleman. But I do see he is using his (in my view) God-given intellect, and that to me is a good and righteous thing to do. I don't believe that making an intellectual mistake will result in eternal damnation. That view is one reading of the Bible, one I do not share.
As an extreme example, say there is one man who murders throughout his life, steals, even worships Satan. On his death bed, out of fear, he thinks in his mind "I accept Jesus as my lord and savior". Another man lives his life filled with the love of God in his heart and and the appreciation of God's creation in his mind. He gives all his time to feeding the poor and helping the sick. He is an atheist who has not been convinced intellectually of the divinity of Christ. I think to argue that the first man will dwell eternally in paradise and that second man will be eternally tortured sells God short and must be a misinterpretation of the scripture.
Religious discussions rarely change anyone's opinions, but I thank you for your comments.
Did you skip your catechism classes?
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Golly Gee...I'll try to follow along, but I don't know. Hope you don't use big words and all!
The learned Muslim believes Christianity replaced the God of Abraham with a false, polytheistic god.
Sorry to have to disagree with you here, but no they don't.
you're only acknowledging an unlearned and/or casual Muslim mindset.
Does that mean I don't win at Final Jeopardy?
Do I at least get parting gifts?
You don't read very well, do you? That log you got in your eye make it a little difficult to see the words I posted.
I can appreciate what you've said. But, for me, it is important to know the individual as part of a religion, rather than to judge the individual by their religion- or those who make said religion even worse. I look for the good in all people (which is an amazing change from my early 20s). Why did I change? I suspect my growing faith in Christ and God. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
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CHRISLAM.
So if Bush really believes this, he may be deluded about the true nature of jihadis.
If he doesn't, then he was lying. That's no big deal for a politician.
At least now the jihadis will understand that Bush is on their side.
After all, wer're all in this together, Ibrahim and Abraham, Ishmael and Ismail.
Well, he really couldn't say anything else, could he, otherwise the whole carefully calibrated strategy of the WoT goes Kaput.
The President should have finessed Islamic questions from the outset. Rather than "Islam means peace," he could have said "many Muslims desire peace," and opted not to play "gotcha" games when politics and theology converge.For today's question, he should have answered, "that's between Muslims and God, just as it is between Christians and God. It's not my place, as President, to make such determinations."
Well said, O sage and brilliant Tiger.
A "religion of peace," says President Bush about Islam.
But investigative journalist Robert Spencer, in his new book "Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West," argues that what we call "Islamic extremism" stems from a straightforward reading of the Koran and interpretative Islamic texts.
On Nov. 10, 2003, I interviewed Spencer.
Larry Elder: Is Islam a religion of peace that's been hijacked by Islamic extremists, as George W. Bush says?
Robert Spencer: There are millions of peaceful Muslims . . . but the fact is that radical Muslims are using core texts of Islam that are deeply rooted in Islamic theology, tradition, history and law to justify their actions, and those radical Muslims are able to recruit and motivate terrorists around the world by appealing to these core Islamic texts. . . . As far as the radical, violent elements of the religion go, they are very deeply rooted, and we are naive in the extreme if we don't recognize that and try to get moderate Muslims to acknowledge it so that real reform can take place.
Elder: Have some translations of the Koran taken out the more extreme statements?
Spencer: The only Koran that really matters is what's in Arabic, because as far as traditional Islamic theology goes, Allah . . . was speaking to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel, and the language is intrinsic, can't be separated from the message. The fact is that what's in Arabic is very clear . . . but in two opposite directions. What you have are very many verses of peace and tolerance, and also very many verses sanctioning and mandating violence against non-believers. . . .
You find many moderate Muslim spokesmen and American-Muslim advocates in this country, who quote you the peaceful and tolerant verses, and no reference to the violent verses. . . . When you read Islamic theologians themselves . . . you find they actually confront this problem directly. . . . Some of the most respected thinkers in Islamic history say that when you come upon these kinds of disagreements -- where you see peace in one place and violence in the other -- you have to go with what was revealed last, that cancels out what was revealed before. Unfortunately, for the moderates, the violent verses were revealed later and they cancel out the peaceful ones -- but you won't hear this from the American Muslim advocacy groups. . . .
What we need to see is a forthright acknowledgement of it and reform from moderate Muslims themselves, the same way that the Pope has apologized for the Crusades and Christianity at large . . . has repudiated the theology that gave rise to them. So we need to see . . . moderates on a large scale repudiating the theology that has led to violent jihad, which the radicals are using to justify their actions.
Elder: You write, "Muslims must present non-Muslims with the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death."
Spencer: Correct. This is a deeply rooted tradition in Islam. Islam is unique among religions in having a developed doctrine theology in law that mandates violence against non-believers. Not all Muslims take it seriously, but the radicals do, and they are working to recruit and motivate terrorists. So . . . whenever anybody says we want to institute Sharia Islamic law in a country, they mean these laws. They do not provide for the equality of rights and dignity of non-Muslims in a Muslim society . . . (but) mandate just the opposite -- that non-Muslims are not to be given equality of rights, but denied various jobs because they're not allowed to hold authority over Muslims.
They must pay a special tax called the jizya, which is referred to in the verse you mentioned. . . . Their humiliation and inferior status is enforced with numerous other regulations, still part of Islamic law, and liable to be enforced by radical Muslims and who want to gain power and institute Islamic law. . . .
Anybody who is concerned about human rights would be resisting and be happy to join in the War on Terror.
Larry: So, when the president says that Islam is a religion of peace, is he saying that because it's a politically correct way of phrasing it so that people don't get the impression that we are at war against a religion?
Spencer: Your guess is as good as mine in terms of what the president is thinking. . . . He's aware that radical Muslims are trying to make this into that kind of a war . . . and he's trying . . . to keep that from happening. . . . The problem with what he's saying is that it's misleading. If it's followed through, it might hinder law enforcement efforts against radical Muslims who are operating in the United States . . . and it could have very serious consequences.
What should he say?
Spencer: I think he should say nothing. As Pat Robertson said, he wasn't appointed the Chief Theologian of the United States . . . he doesn't have to tell Americans what Islam is all about. All he has to do is fight against the enemies that are threatening . . . our freedom and our continued life in the United States.
Only in your imagination, friend.
Many Christian clergy are mixed up themselves.
Yes. All the proof I need. Don't take anyone's word for it. Pick any valid religion and follow it sincerely to its destination for all the proof you need.
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