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Christian medical students want anti-evolution lectures
Aftenposten (Norway News) ^ | 19 Nov 2003 | Jonathan Tisdall

Posted on 11/19/2003 10:15:28 AM PST by yonif

Medical student John David Johannessen and the leader of the Christian Medical Students Circle have petitioned the medical faculty at the University of Oslo for lectures "that not only argue the cause for evolution, but also the evidence against", student newspaper Universitas reports.

"The theory of evolution doesn't stand up and does not present enough convincing facts. It is one theory among many, but in education it is discussed as if it is accepted by everyone," Johannessen said.

Johannessen is a believer in creationism, based on the biblical account.

"Of course one has to know the theory of evolution, it is after all part of the curriculum. But certain lecturers demand that one believe it as well. Then it becomes a question of faith and not subject," Johannessen said.

Johannessen told the newspaper that he and his fellows are often compared to American extremists. Besides not being taken seriously or being able to debate the topic relevantly, Johannessen said that 'evolutionists' practically harass those who do not agree with them.

Dean Per Brodal said it was regrettable if any university staff were disparaging to creationists, but that there was no reason to complain about a lack of relevant evidence. Brodal also felt that evolution had a rather minor spot in medical education.

Biology professor Nils Christian Stenseth argued that instead of indulging an 'off-topic' debate the medical faculty should offer a course in fundamental evolutionary biology, saying that nothing in biology could be understood out of an evolutionary context.

The Christian Medical Students Circle want three basic points to be included in the curriculum:

1 According to the theory of evolution a mutation must be immediately beneficial to survive through selection. But many phenomena explained by evolution (for example the eye) involve so many, small immediately detrimental mutations that only give a long-term beneficial effect.

2 There is no fossil evidence to indicate transitional forms between, for example, fish and land animals or apes and humans.

3 Evolution assumes too many extremely improbably events occurring over too short a span of time.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: christianstudents; creationism; crevolist; evolution; evolutionisatheory; medicalschool; norway; scienceeducation
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To: Last Visible Dog
This debate is about teaching the weaknesses in theory of evolution in medical school but all our Orthodox Darwinist friends can do is ramble endlessly about Creationism.

Oooh!! I get it! "Communism Creationism is a red herring."

221 posted on 11/20/2003 10:39:05 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Doctor Stochastic
But you have no eyewitness of meteors forming macro-craters; only micro-crateration has been observed.

Nice bit of tap-dancing but the size of meteor craters does not make one macro and one micro in same context as micro and macro evolution. Nice try.

Fact is we can observe meteor craters on other planets of similar size.

222 posted on 11/20/2003 10:41:14 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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Comment #223 Removed by Moderator

To: schmelvin
About the word THEORY: please do NOT use ``it is only a theory''
more information:

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1531.htm
224 posted on 11/20/2003 10:47:13 AM PST by Tac12
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To: Modernman
Whose mind am I purporting to read? Care to give an accounting of what you consider to be the typical creationist approach to debate?

How else do you know somebody else's debating tactic? I don't speculate on other people's positions so I am not going to try and give an account of what another person will or will not say. The only reason you pretend to know "the typical creationist approach to debate" is you were lobbing a preemptive strike to try and discredit the other side before the other side has said anything.

I am not a creationist - I just don't like the faultily logic of one person explaining to us what another person really thinks. You are better off defending YOUR position rather then pretending you know what other people think.

225 posted on 11/20/2003 10:48:22 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: VadeRetro
Wrong again! You either believed what you wrote or you didn't.

Now you are rambling. You claim to know what creationists will say - what gives you this magical power?

226 posted on 11/20/2003 10:50:41 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Last Visible Dog
...the size of meteor craters does not make one macro and one micro in same context as micro and macro evolution...

Why?

227 posted on 11/20/2003 10:53:40 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: atlaw
The "irony knows no bounds" award for the day.

So you actually believe attacking creationism somehow supports the theory of evolution? You people are amazing.

228 posted on 11/20/2003 10:56:14 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: VadeRetro
Oooh!! I get it! "Creationism is a red herring."

Exactly! Creationism has nothing to do with accepting the fact there are weaknesses in the theory of evolution. Put another way: one can find weaknesses in one theory without having to provide an alternative theory. Just as finding weaknesses in one theory does provide supporting evidence to an opposing theory.

229 posted on 11/20/2003 11:02:29 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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No evidence?
230 posted on 11/20/2003 11:03:37 AM PST by metacognative
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To: Last Visible Dog
How else do you know somebody else's debating tactic?

Based on my observations of debates on this matter as well as other peoples' descriptions of such debates. With this evidence, I'm comfortable saying that creationists who debate evolutionists in a public setting typically rely on a certain approach. Are there exceptions? Sure. Typically, though, the debating tactics described on this thread are the ones creationists use. No mind-reading required.

231 posted on 11/20/2003 11:04:20 AM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: RonaldSmythe
The origins of life are outside the scope of the theory of evolution. Science is working on the origins of life, but I'm ignorant of the exact details.

Sounds good. So why do evolutionists attack creationists since creationism addresses origin of life and evolution does not and can not?

232 posted on 11/20/2003 11:04:51 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Why?

Micro and macro evolution are two different processes. Micro being evolution within a species and macro being one species becoming another. Micro evolution is scientifically observable and macro evolution is pure theory.

The size of a meteor does not make it micro or macro in the same context as evolution (the only factor is the size of the meteor not the processes involved in a meteor hitting the Earth).

You may claim Micro and Macro evolution differ only in size but that would be hard to support.

233 posted on 11/20/2003 11:12:15 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: VadeRetro
How about tree shrews to primates?
234 posted on 11/20/2003 11:15:57 AM PST by metacognative
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To: Last Visible Dog
you -- "Attacking creationism does not in any way support the theory of evolution."

me -- "The 'irony knows no bounds' award for the day."

you -- "So you actually believe attacking creationism somehow supports the theory of evolution? You people are amazing."

PRESS RELEASE -- Two members of the Irony Awards Committee were hospitalized today for "near-cranial-explosion" syndrome when the irony in the committee room reached critical mass. The remaining members of the committee are under quarantine at "Paddy's Pub," reportedly receiving emergency alcohol treatments.
235 posted on 11/20/2003 11:18:37 AM PST by atlaw
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To: Last Visible Dog
"Micro" and "macro" evolution differ only in the number of changes in the genome.

Of course, we have observed speciation, but we have never observed a large meteor crater being formed.
236 posted on 11/20/2003 11:19:24 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: TigerTale
I read the article and I fail to see any coorelation between this and spontaneous generation. A virus was re-engineered with a seperate genetic code, not created from "scratch" (and not by random processes to boot.) I don't mean to reduce their accomplishment but to suggest that this means random atomic and molecular material may somehow combine and spring to life is an impossible leap. The article admits that the scientists merely implanted an existing virus with a new code. They did not literally create a living cell from scratch, which is what the theory of evolution postulates.
237 posted on 11/20/2003 11:20:48 AM PST by Abe Froman
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To: Last Visible Dog
I am not a creationist

You have said this time and time again, and I used to believe you. In light of your more recent posts over the last month or so, I must admit I'm finding it harder and harder to believe. But then again, as we've also been told, we are just dopey rubes that can't possibly come to grips with your intellect.

However, to your point that evolution is evolution and creationism simply addresses the moment of creation... if that were all that there is to creationism, then I would support your contention 100%. Unfortunately, creationism as well as it's new form under the guise of ID, does not stop at, "God created the world." If it did, there wouldn't be much to these crevo threads at all, especially since many here believe "God created the world," yet still accept evolutionary facts.
238 posted on 11/20/2003 11:22:28 AM PST by whattajoke (Neutiquam erro.)
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To: PatrickHenry
"Okay. In that case, I assume you claim we are intellectually powerless to figure out what caused this:"

Absolutely not. We could test to see whether we could reproduce the effect either in full or in miniature. Then we would know the answer.
239 posted on 11/20/2003 11:24:54 AM PST by Abe Froman
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Of course, we have observed speciation

Just for the edification of the lurkers and creationists, here's a good example of that.
240 posted on 11/20/2003 11:25:44 AM PST by whattajoke (Neutiquam erro.)
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