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Universal National Service Act of 2003
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Posted on 11/12/2003 9:49:33 AM PST by hsmomx3

Anyone hear about this?

"The Universal National Service Act of 2003 "amends the Military Selective Service Act to authorize the military registration of females" and declares "that it is the obligation of every U.S. citizen, and every other person residing in the United States, between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a two-year period of national service"


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: draft
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To: NYC GOP Chick
Actually, the law would apply to both men *and* women -- although I do believe that hysterical ninnies who throw hissy fits should be exempted.

But it doesn't, therefore you have no leg to stand on.

You go get selective service to require females to regester, then we'll talk.

81 posted on 11/12/2003 12:01:40 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: AndyObermann
Really? You seem like the kind who slavishly watches and takes notes.
82 posted on 11/12/2003 12:02:11 PM PST by NYC GOP Chick (The LMDC can go to hell)
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To: NYC GOP Chick
You just don't get it. You're not the first person to have dreams and to (allegedly) work hard toward achieving them.

No, I would say that YOU don't get it. Involuntary servitude is not cheap, either for the government or the individuals involved. It is a profoundly stupid idea and accentuate many of the things that are currently wrong with the government. One of the things that makes the US military great is that it is semi-privatized in the sense that it isn't a mandatory social program. And we really don't have a need for this kind of program anyway; it reeks of another socialist boondoggle that will suck money and deliver few results.

Will it stop a young persons career ambitions? No, it will not "stop" them in the average case, but it will impact them economically over the long run any way you slice it. It is, in effect, another kind of tax. I've seen the effectiveness of such programs in countries that actually do this, and the effect it has on the young adults that go through it; we don't want to be inflicting the same mess on our own young adults. Involuntary servitude is bullshit; it is the same reason conservatives nominally abhor taxes.

And before you get all self-righteous about your uncle being in the military or some such nonsense, I am a former combat soldier in Uncle Sam's Army who understands precisely how these things work. I was motivated because I chose to do it, and the military actively states that they do not want anybody in it that doesn't want to be there. It is why they will terminate service contracts of people who want out even though their contract isn't up. A soldier that doesn't want to be their is worse than a soldier who isn't there at all.

Unlike many armchair warriors, I recognize that military service has a real cost associated with it that is detrimental to the individual in many cases. Many people have no business being in the military and the US would not be served well by forcing them to be there. That aside, it is horribly inefficient economically and the US does not need yet another drag on its economy.

83 posted on 11/12/2003 12:02:34 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: ctdonath2
I am neither a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, however I am virtually certain that the Supreme Court has ruled that conscription is not involuntary servitude under the Thirteenth Amendment, since the service members are paid wages.
84 posted on 11/12/2003 12:03:05 PM PST by CholeraJoe (That others may live)
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To: NYC GOP Chick
I don't consider it to be slavery or involuntary servitude.

Could you define either term?

85 posted on 11/12/2003 12:03:48 PM PST by freeeee (I may disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it)
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To: NYC GOP Chick
I'm not whining and whimpering about it at all. If it happens it happens...if they want me to go...I'll go. I'm just voicing my opinion on the matter. Try and seperate the emotion from the differences between your opinion and those of others. You aren't going to get far by jumping someone everytime you don't agree with their position on an issue.-ANdY
86 posted on 11/12/2003 12:04:06 PM PST by AndyObermann
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To: tortoise
I guess you missed the part about "alternative national service" while you were frothing at the mouth in self-righteous sanctimony.
87 posted on 11/12/2003 12:04:43 PM PST by NYC GOP Chick (The LMDC can go to hell)
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To: freeeee
Yes, I can. But I shudder to think of your definitions of them.
88 posted on 11/12/2003 12:05:07 PM PST by NYC GOP Chick (The LMDC can go to hell)
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To: JohnGalt
I am beside myself to see a trusted libertarian support national service garbage.
Why would the military and compulsory service be any better than the disaster that is public education in teaching the populace to love liberty?
53 -JG-





I am beside myself to see a self described 'conservative' out himself as being against a national service obligation.
We need good citizens drilled in the military arts. -- And always will..

Compulsory training for a limited time as a rite of citizenship is perfectly compatible with constitutional republicanism.

Certainly be better method than the disaster that is public education in teaching the populace to love liberty, imo.
89 posted on 11/12/2003 12:05:24 PM PST by tpaine (I'm trying to be 'Mr Nice Guy', but FRs flying monkey squad brings out the Rickenbacker in me.)
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To: TLI
You have come a long way baby. This is what the fem-libs wanted--total equality. This will give it to them. Once the little 19 and 20 year olds start coming back in large numbers in body bags people might begin to see that this isn't such a good idea after all.
90 posted on 11/12/2003 12:05:53 PM PST by Hollywoodghost (Let he who would be free strike the first blow)
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To: AndyObermann
Sorry, but I just don't have any respect for those who whine about having "career plans" as if that gives them some special status and makes them better than anyone else.
91 posted on 11/12/2003 12:06:38 PM PST by NYC GOP Chick (The LMDC can go to hell)
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To: tortoise
Excellent point...you had the words that I didn't! I appreciate your insight!

-ANdY

92 posted on 11/12/2003 12:07:05 PM PST by AndyObermann
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To: CholeraJoe
service members are paid wages

If someone makes you bust rocks at gunpoint for 5 years and pays you a buck, you aren't a slave?

93 posted on 11/12/2003 12:07:06 PM PST by freeeee (I may disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it)
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To: NYC GOP Chick
I don't consider it to be slavery or involuntary servitude. I'd consider it an honor.

The issue is not whether the person affected considers it an honor (you are now free to sign up for that honor, which you haven't).
The issue is whether the person affected has a choice in the matter (there is no honor in "serve or be jailed").

94 posted on 11/12/2003 12:07:10 PM PST by ctdonath2
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To: NYC GOP Chick
I guess you missed the part about "alternative national service" while you were frothing at the mouth in self-righteous sanctimony.

"Alternative national service" equals "socialist make-work programs". A big freaking waste of money, and arguably worse than just a military impress.

And it is you who are frothing at the mouth. Wipe the spittle off your monitor and take a break.

You are "thinking" with your emotions. I think your "inner liberal" has orchestrated a coup of your brain.

95 posted on 11/12/2003 12:08:15 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: freeeee
"A two year stint of slavery isn't going to instill love of one's country with young people."

Your ignorance is breathtaking. There's a hugh difference between serving your country and slavery for cryin' out loud.

I live in the homeport community that is proud to have the opportunity to host the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln. I see daily the benefits of military service. The work and other opportunities offered to the enlistee's and draftee's too if it were so, cannot be described in anyway as slavish.

There's other ways a person could serve their Country too and none of it requires being subjugated. Consider the words; Honor Duty Country.

Using your logic concerning a draft, then compulsory education is slavery.

96 posted on 11/12/2003 12:08:44 PM PST by bigfootbob
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To: NYC GOP Chick
I'm not whining...again seperate the emotion...it is an opinion...if they want me, I'll go.
97 posted on 11/12/2003 12:08:48 PM PST by AndyObermann
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To: ctdonath2
It's about having responsibilities that go along with all the rights we have.

Nope, I didn't sign up and now regret that very much. But comparing military service to slavery is warped, at the very least.

98 posted on 11/12/2003 12:09:46 PM PST by NYC GOP Chick (The LMDC can go to hell)
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To: freeeee; ctdonath2
I was wrong about the wages, but the Supremes have ruled that the XIIIth Amendment doesn't apply to conscription

Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U.S. 366 (1918). The Court's analysis, in full, of the Thirteenth Amendment issue raised by a compulsory military draft was the following: ''As we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation, as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people, can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.'' Id. at 390. While the Supreme Court has never squarely held that conscription need not be premised on a declaration of war, indications are that the power is not constrained by the need for a formal declaration of war by ''the great representative body of the people.'' During the Vietnam War (an undeclared war) the Court, upholding a conviction for burning a draft card, declared that the power to classify and conscript manpower for military service was ''beyond question.'' United States v. O'Brien, 391 U.S. 367, 377 (1968). See also United States v. Holmes, 387 F.2d 781, 784 (7th Cir. 1968) (''the power of Congress to raise armies and to take effective measures to preserve their efficiency, is not limited by either the Thirteenth Amendment or the absence of a military emergency''), cert. denied 391 U.S. 956 .

99 posted on 11/12/2003 12:10:00 PM PST by CholeraJoe (That others may live)
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To: tortoise
And how do you know that it would "socialist make-work programs?" But at least *I* am thinking...
100 posted on 11/12/2003 12:10:53 PM PST by NYC GOP Chick (The LMDC can go to hell)
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