Life starts after 14 days, say Anglicans

The Age (Australia) ^ | November 5, 2003 | Peta Rasdien

[nickcarraway]

Life does not begin when sperm meets egg, but 14 days after, according to the head of the Anglican Church in Australia.

Primate Peter Carnley told the Fertility Society of Australia in Perth yesterday this meant objections to IVF, genetic testing and stem cell research should fall away.

Archbishop Carnley said that until it was implanted in a womb lining, a fertilised egg was not a human life but rather a genetically novel kind of cell.

The fertilised egg must also pass the point that it could split to become an identical twin, which was at about 14 days. After that, the embryo should be accorded the status of an individual human with rights to care, protection and life.

Dr Carnley's position clearly contradicts that of the Catholic Church, which holds that life begins when an egg is fertilised.

But Dr Carnley said the debate about the beginning of life within the Christian faith did not come to that view until 1869, when Pius IX declared all abortion was wrong from the beginning of conception.

Dr Carnley argued that scientific knowledge had moved forward since then and must be taken into account.

If conception was defined as the meeting of gametes - egg and sperm - then the cloned sheep Dolly was not conceived, because Dolly was the product of cell nuclear transfer, where the ovum nucleus was replaced by DNA from an adult cell.

"I think it is now clear that we must begin to think of conception less as a moment and more in gradual and continuous terms as a process," Dr Carnley said.

He said since 1984 Anglican moral theology had concluded that conception was a 14-day process and this helped shape legislation around the world.

"Given that twinning can occur up to the 14th day of this process, it is not logically possible to talk of the conception of a unique human individual prior to the completion of this process.

"Each of us can say that we came to be in the sense that we were each conceived, as a potential human individual, 14 days after the fertilisation of an ovum, not before." He said the natural 60 per cent wastage of ova during IVF procedures need not be considered the killing of conceived human individuals.

"We do not have some 70,000 frozen people on ice at various places around Australia," he said.

Embryo experimentation and stem cell research were also morally acceptable.

"If there is a utilitarian argument for the possible benefit to mankind of experimentation on embryos, this could be tolerated in a controlled way under licence up until the 14th day in a way that after the 14th day it would not," he said.

"Stem cell research becomes also thinkable, for stem cells are harvested well within the 14th day period."

[hocndoc]

According to embryology, it's at the fusion of the nuclei of the sperm and oocyte, in sexual reproduction. The zygote is the final stage of fertilization. I've quoted this before:
"""... the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments, and ends with the intermingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote. The zygote is characteristic of the last phase of fertilization and is identified by the first cleavage spindle. It is a unicellular embryo.""""
http://www.l4l.org/library/mythfact.html

RONAN O'RAHILLY AND FABIOLA MULLER, Human Embryology & Teratology (3rd
ed.)(New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001): Although life is a continuous process, fertilization ... is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte. This remains true even though the embryonic genome is not actually activated until 2-8 cells are present, at about 2-3 days. ... During the embryonic period proper, milestones include fertilization, activation of embryonic from extra-embryonic cells, implantation, and the appearance of the primitive streak and bilateral symmetry. Despite the various embryological milestones, however, development is a continuous rather than a saltatory process, and hence the selection of prenatal events would seem to be largely arbitrary.(p. 8); ... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments, and ends with the intermingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote. ... Fertilization takes place normally in the ampulla (lateral end) of the uterine tube. (p. 31); ... Coalescence of homologous chromosomes, resulting in a one-cell embryo. The two pronuclei do not fuse but their nuclear envelopes break down and form vesicles. The two groups of homologous chromosomes then move together and become arranged on the first cleavage spindle. [[[ i.e., the embryo begins before syngamy.]]] ...The zygote is characteristic of the last phase of fertilization and is identified by the first cleavage spindle. It is a unicellular embryo and is a highly specialized cell. The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity. (p. 33); ... Prenatal life is conveniently divided into two phases: the embryonic and the fetal... [I]t is now accepted that the word embryo, as currently used in human embryology, means 'an unborn human in the first 8 weeks' from fertilization. Embryonic life begins with the formation of a new embryonic genome (slightly prior to its activation). (p. 87)
http://www.cloninginformation.org/info/textbook_references.htm
""Within 11 hours following fertilization, the oocyte has extruded a polar body with its excess chromosomes. The fusion of the oocyte and sperm nuclei marks the creation of the zygote and the end of fertilization."
http://www.visembryo.com/baby/stage1.html
And, although this reference uses the new term, "pre-embryo" (invented by Peter Singer, et al,
Dawson, Karen 1990, "Introduction: An outline of scientific aspects of human embryo research", in Singer, Peter; Helga Khuse; Stephen Buckle, Karen Dawson; Pascal kasimba (eds.), Embryo Experimentation, Cambridge University Press., to describe the embryo before the primitive streak appears, and disparaged by leading embryologists
http://www.cloninginformation.org/info/textbook_references.htm
), here's another reference:
""Fertilization is a complex biochemical process and sequence of events that takes approximately 24 hours after penetration of the oocyte by the sperm (12). It usually occurs in the fallopian tube at the end nearest the ovary. It begins with contact of the male and female gametes, continues with the gradual penetration of the sperm into the various layers of the oocyte, and is completed when the pronuclei of the sperm and oocyte lose their nuclear membranes and fuse to form a new cell called the zygote. Paternal and maternal genetic contributions during the fertilization process are from separate pronuclei; as separate entities, they can be experimentally removed from the process. The last stage of the mingling process is called syngamy. In this stage, the male and female haploid chromosome sets finally fuse, following the breakdown of their pronuclear membranes, into a zygote, a diploid cell with 46 chromosomes.""
http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/ethics/ethics69.cfm
Even though this author draws a line between the embryo and the pre-embryo he is able to distinguish between the gametes and the zygote.

[realpatriot71]

Humans can be killed or die naturally at anytime after fertilization or the quickening of a clone (however or if that's ever possible). But, that doesn't change that the beginning is before implantation. A somatic cell or gamete can't become a blastocyst - aren't actual developing and differentiating being

Your are correct, but w/o implanation it doesn't matter what started, when it started, or how it started, our happy little developing blastocyst will not live, period. For all intents and purposes, there is no life without implantation, because implantation is a necessary condition for continued development. And I know, I know, "It's a continuum" - however this particular stage of "the continuum" has nothing recognizable as human except for it's DNA, and even DNA outside of this context is just one large biomolecule. "Humaness" for all practical purposes is not our DNA, or our organelles, or our cells, it is the fact that we are able to know, acknowledge, and fear a creator. A conceptus obviously needs a certain amount of development for this to happen (at least a brain). A blastocyst has no brain nor any other organization that can be recognized at distinctinly "human". My point being that if one is going to draw a line, "before implanation" is not that illogical a line to draw

[beavus]

RONAN O'RAHILLY AND FABIOLA MULLER, Human Embryology & Teratology (3rd ed.)(New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001): Although life is a continuous process...Despite the various embryological milestones, however, development is a continuous rather than a saltatory process, and hence the selection of prenatal events would seem to be largely arbitrary

So if you won't take my word for it, maybe you'll take theirs? There is no specific beginning. Or did you post this to put the poofmongers in their place?

Nice to know, BTW, that embryology hasn't changed since I studied it just a few short years ago.

[hocndoc]

You misunderstand. The portion you quote is speaking of "embryological milestones" -- there is already an embryo present to develop continuously.
Take a look at the link, again.
http://www.cloninginformation.org/info/textbook_references.htm
There is indeed a specific beginning, which I can't believe that you missed in the lines before your excerpt of the excerpt:

""Although life is a continuous process, fertilization ... is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.

[hocndoc]

If there's nothing recognizable as human, why would anyone want to harvest the cells of the pre-14-day-old embryo? Bodily integrity and the proper environment is necessary at all stages of life.

Not every human being currently recognized as a legal person is able to know, acknowledge and/or fear God. Infants, the mentally retarded, and those who are brain damaged or psychologically ill would not be human under your conditions.

The embryo is capable of knowing God, in most cases, if he lives long enough. The blastocyst has the cells which will give rise to the cells which are the brain. He or she is functioning properly for his or her age.

If one is going to draw a line as to when a human may be protected from killing and when he may not, then Carnley may be right, Peter Singer may be right, and Saddam Hussein may be right.

But, why would anyone even want to determine that some human beings may be discriminated against and have their right to life infringed?

[hocndoc]

For more on the theme of worth of a human life:
http://washingtonjewishweek.com/localstory.html?/wjw/346957471916660.bsp

[MHGinTN]

Thank you for the ping, Lady.

[beavus]

a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte

Does this refer to when the chromosomes begin to "blend", or when they finish blending?

[hocndoc]

What difference would that make in light of Carnley's statement that the embryo is not a human life until 14 days or your stated concern as to "why" we protect human life?

Another quote on that last link states that:


""The zygote is characteristic of the last phase of fertilization and is identified by the first cleavage spindle. It is a unicellular embryo and is a highly specialized cell. The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity. (p. 33)""


I believe that the spindles appear before the chromosomes line up or actually intermingle.

Here's another online discussion of fertilization in humans:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/Sexual_Reproduction.html#Copulation_and_Fertilization

[beavus]

What difference would that make

Does this mean that you don't want to tell me when the beginning is because you think that it doesn't matter? Feel free to tell me in your own words, even to speculate, if you're not sure. I will be able to make my point either way. But to illustrate my point, you MUST give me a specific time. Any time.

[realpatriot71]

If there's nothing recognizable as human, why would anyone want to harvest the cells of the pre-14-day-old embryo

I said that there is nothing recognizable as human in a practical sense. While having human DNA, and developing into a human, the blastocyst does not posses any of the faculties that make every developed human, "human," in a practical sense such as eyes, ears, hands, etc - the very means by which humans are able to approach man, the universe, and God in a way that other animals cannot. One obviously needs some amount of development before any of this can occur, at the very least sentience. You cannot harm that which doesn't know it's harmed, and once again development is necessary to "know" harm from non-harm.

Not every human being currently recognized as a legal person is able to know, acknowledge and/or fear God. Infants, the mentally retarded, and those who are brain damaged or psychologically ill would not be human under your conditions.

My criteria applies to what is given to us in the Holy Word. Man's duty is to know and love his God - That is what man was created for. As for the infant, the mentally challened, and the pschychotically ill, all have the structures and development (morphological abnormalities are adressed below) necessary to know and love God. Therefore, (1) in the case of the infant these structures are completely developmed to a point where the infant can now learn to know and love God as it grows and (2) the same applies for the retarded and mentally ill, both have the "same structures" to know and love God, but their structures are warped because we live in a fallen world, the retarded by incorrect growth (or destruction) and the mentally ill by an imbalance in the chemicals that control the brain (neither of which is the fault of God - His creation was perfect). So, when looked at it this light my criteria does not apply to these instances, because I am talking about a time PRE- development of these particular structures.

So when does the blastocyst "know" God? I don't know (nor will I guess) . . . but I do know that development of a CNS is necessary for this to occur in a real sense (as described before), and before implantation there is no CNS yet, so I think it is safe to say that the blastocyst does NOT "know" anything before such development of a CNS. Therefore this "line in the sand" is not arbitrary but founded in the science of development and the known nature of man's reaction to his enviroment and to his God. It's not an illogical stance - that was my point.

[hocndoc]

If you read, Dr. O'Rahilly said that that the beginning of the zygote and the end of fertilization is indicated by the appearance of the cleavage spindle. Dr, Kindall said much the same.
There may be more precise markers in the future, with advances in our knowledge. However, I don't believe that it matters: the best practice would be to avoid interfering when sperm encounters the oocyte. That way, there would be no killing caused by intentional action.



http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/Sexual_Reproduction.html#Copulation_and_Fertilization

[MHGinTN]

You do of course realize that the blastocyst 'signals' its environment, that the embryo, even before arm buds or leg buds, takes actions which are directed toward survival, that the forming placenta functions in such ways as to be definable as an organ, the first organ the newly conceived life builds for its own survival, just as that same organism builds thr organs needed for survival whne that individual life exits into the air world. Right?

[hocndoc]

I'm afraid we'll have to disagree that it's necessary to have a certain level of development to be considered human.
Humanity does not develop anymore than God's ability to know us.
The body is the human, and the human is the body. The body does not become human, any more than a person can become not-human. The person can only be alive or dead from fertilization on. The body of the single cell human is all he has, and appropriate for that stage of development.

[MHGinTN]

As a libertarian thinker, you might find the following an interesting read ... as a physician you will no doubt have already been exposed to these facts.

"During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced.
To understand this, it should be remembered that each kind of living organism has a specific number and quality of chromosomes that are characteristic for each member of a species. (The number can vary only slightly if the organism is to survive.) For example, the characteristic number of chromosomes for a member of the human species is 46 (plus or minus, e.g., in human beings with Down's or Turner's syndromes). Every somatic (or, body) cell in a human being has this characteristic number of chromosomes. Even the early germ cells contain 46 chromosomes; it is only their most mature forms — the sex gametes, or sperms and oocytes — which will later contain only 23 chromosomes.
Sperms and oocytes are derived from primitive germ cells in the developing fetus by means of the process known as "gametogenesis." Because each germ cell normally has 46 chromosomes, the process of "fertilization" can not take place until the total number of chromosomes in each germ are cut in half. This is necessary so that after their fusion at fertilization the characteristic number of chromosomes in a single individual member of the human species (46) can be maintained — otherwise we would end up with a monster of some sort. To accurately see why a sperm or an oocyte are considered as only possessing human life, and not as living human beings themselves, one needs to look at the basic scientific facts involved in the processes of gametogenesis and of fertilization.
It may help to keep in mind that the products of gametogenesis and fertilization are very different. The products of gametogenesis are mature sex gametes with only 23 instead of 46 chromosomes. The product of fertilization is a living human being with 46 chromosomes. Gametogenesis refers to the maturation of germ cells resulting in gametes. Fertilization refers to the initiation of a new human being."

[When Do Human Beings Begin? By Dianne M. Irving, MA., Ph.D; copyright 1999 http://www.l4l.org/library/mythfact.html ... L4L is Libertarians For Life]

[MHGinTN]

* placemarker

[NeoCaveman]

He said the natural 60 per cent wastage of ova during IVF procedures need not be considered the killing of conceived human individuals.

Yes it is.

"We do not have some 70,000 frozen people on ice at various places around Australia," he said.

Just because it is unpleasant to think about the Nazi-like atrocities committed in the enlightened west doesn't make them any less true.

[beavus]

the beginning of the zygote...is indicated by the appearance of the cleavage spindle

Thank you for answering. Now, is the beginning, do you think, at the start of the appearance of the cleavage spindle, or when it has fully developed?

[MHGinTN]

* placemarker

[hocndoc]

As I said, "However, I don't believe that it matters: the best practice would be to avoid interfering when sperm encounters the oocyte. That way, there would be no killing caused by intentional action."