Posted on 10/23/2003 5:35:13 AM PDT by ForGod'sSake
S 1558 IS
To restore religious freedoms.
Mr. ALLARD introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
To restore religious freedoms.
END
The bill has a total of 10 cosponsors; they are:
| Sen Brownback, Sam - 9/23/2003 [KS] | Sen Bunning, Jim - 10/20/2003 [KY] |
| Sen Burns, Conrad R. - 9/29/2003 [MT] | Sen Cochran, Thad - 9/30/2003 [MS] |
| Sen Craig, Larry E. - 10/21/2003 [ID] | Sen Enzi, Michael B. - 10/2/2003 [WY] |
| Sen Graham, Lindsey O. - 9/26/2003 [SC] | Sen Inhofe, Jim - 9/30/2003 [OK] |
| Sen Lott, Trent - 9/30/2003 [MS] | Sen Shelby, Richard C. - 9/25/2003 [AL] |
Yet we outlaw murder, rape, etc. Laws don't necessarily stop things from happening. They can be preventive; but, they define what course we take as a society when people act in an unacceptable way. Thus it isn't neccessarily legislating virtue. It's defining how to deal with vice. And society does have a right to reasonable expectations as to individual behavior. Your freedoms end where those of another begin. I see it as my right to defend my family from immorality. Lets say you decide you should be able to sleep with anyone you want to and set eyes on my daughter to charm her into bed. Do I have rights? Does she? Or do you just get to run about impregnating anyone you wish while society foots the bill? Many questions arise very quickly showing it not to be as simple an issue as it may appear - for either side. Unless - you have a moral grounding to begin with. Do you have a right to violate my daughter - no. Do I have a right to stop you from doing it - yes. Should there be a law, maybe. Now take that same issue to a group of atheists. Ask some pornographers.. etc. Ask Gene Simmons for that matter. Opinions vary - right and wrong does not. It will always be wrong to commit murder. To some people, though, Murder is their right..
Me? Stubborn? Well, my wife would agree with you. But I am in good company with you.
What are you interpreting - I see no scripture that even REMOTELY can be interpreted to pray with Mary or the saints. In fact, I see many scriptures that say NOT TO. The bible says that praying to the dead is necromancy - this is a sin also. The majority is often wrong - it means nothing.
If she's of legal age? You certainly have the right to try and convince her not to sleep with me. However, if she chooses to sleep with me, you really have no right to prevent us from engaging in the act. In fact, if you threatened me or used violence to stop me, you'd be the one committing an immoral, criminal act.
Does she?
Certainly. She has the right to say no or say yes. If she says no and I force myself onto her, she has the right to defend herself, you have the right to defend her etc. If she says yes, nobody has the right to stop her through force, threats etc.
Do you have a right to violate my daughter - no. Do I have a right to stop you from doing it - yes.
I certainly don't have a right to violate her as my exercising of such "right" would violate her rights to do as she sees fit with her body. Similarly, if she consented to being "violated" as you put it, you would have no right to stop her.
I'm fully aware of that (and so is He :)) But you asked for an explanation from a theistic perspective, and I gave you one.
As someone who was raised (for 25 years) Catholic, I know personally of the heavy emphasis that Catholics place on works, pennance, Pergatory, idols, etc. I spent my life from childhood to adulthood being indoctrinated in these ways.
Then I read a Bible.
Jesus' message is not only much less complicated than are all of the un-Biblical hystrionics that the Catholics had me learn, His message in the Bible is very clear that those who stray from His Word are not following Him, but are being deceived.
Jesus did not say these things to be "hateful" toward Catholics or Muslims or Hindus or Jews.
He said them that all might hear, and plainly know what He meant.
"I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. None shall come to the Father but through Me."
Jesus loves every one of us. His desire is that none should perish. And if any of us does, it will be as a result of the choice we've made: have we chosen to hear and follow Jesus' simple plea, or have we chosen to listen to another... or to nothing?
What you call "hate" is actually the greatest form of love mankind can or will ever know.
"For greater love hath no man but that he should lay down His life for His friends."
I love Catholics. I love you. I love the saved and the unsaved. I will do what I can in the time I have here to make sure that each and every one has a chance to hear Jesus' message of love.
And doing so is the opposite of "hate."
Immoral is sleeping with her without being married to her. See, this is the difference between morality verses criminality. There are more people out there concerned with what they can legally get by with than with what they should be doing in the first place and it's because of permissiveness. Morally, I have a right to stand between you and my daughter. Therefore we have to look at the basis for saying that things between consenting adults are legal. Responsibility has to play a role. If you swindle her, then the consent is based on false trust. If you impregnate her, there should be legal recoarse because in absence of it, we have free spirits running around creating kids that the rest of the world must foot the bill for. Ouch. Steppin on toes, huh. Your presumed rights end where mine begin. I'm not paying for your kids.
That was started by a priest who wrote to the government saying basically "We don't want some future civilization to dig us up and find that we were a godless, heathen society." As if the thousands of churches wouldn't be a good enough indication. Priests influencing government -- I seem to remember Founding Fathers warning against that.
Ahem. As a Catholic, I was taught to recite a prayer called "Hail Mary." (As in "glorify" Mary) For Pennance after every Confession, I was instructed in the number of "Our Fathers" (the Lord's Prayer) and "Hail Marys" to say to garner my absolution... something the Bible says is automatic for merely repentantly confessing your sins to God in Jesus' Name.
The "Hail Mary" goes something like this:
Hail Mary, full of grace. Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Hail Mary, Mother of God. Be with us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen
It is a prayer. A Catholic prayer. You are wrong... again.
Just a little question here. If God is omniscient then why do you need to pray for something? Wouldn't he already know?
This is a moral gray area, open to interpretation, unlike, say, murder. Reasonable people can disagree as to whether pre-marital sex is immoral or not.
Morally, I have a right to stand between you and my daughter.
Perhaps, but as consenting adults we have a moral right to exercise autonomy over our bodies. In fact, your interference with our autonomy (an autonomy that does not infringe on the moral rights of any third parties) would itself be an immoral act. Plus, you certainly wouldn't have a moral right to use force or threats to stop us in this situation.
If you impregnate her, there should be legal recoarse because in absence of it, we have free spirits running around creating kids that the rest of the world must foot the bill for.
And there is- sbe would be able to sue me for paternity. Though no system can force me to be a responsible father in that situation, it can at least force me to meet the bare minimum of responsibility by requiring me to pay my share. Otherwise, my immoral act (abandoning my child) would impose costs on third parties.
Prayer is for our benefit - it builds up our faith. In addition, God wants our trust to be in Him and in Him alone. The bible says that over and over and over again.
Here, let me prompt your memory...
"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress.
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" President George Washington, September 17th, 1796
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." President George Washington
"...The Smiles of Heaven can never be expected On a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of Order and Right, which Heaven Itself Ordained." President George Washington
"I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?" Benjamin Franklin
"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, 1787, Constitutional Convention
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster
"Whether this [new government] will prove a blessing or a curse will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation [Proverbs 14:34]. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself and encourage it in others." Patrick Henry
"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed." Patrick Henry
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." President Thomas Jefferson
"Of all systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson, To William Canby, 1813
"We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions ubridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." John Adams, address to the militia of Massachusetts, 1798.
"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..." President Thomas Jefferson
"The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President John Adams
"Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." James Madison
"We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us . . . to Govern ourselves according to the commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded." President James Madison
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay
"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other." James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court
"Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush
"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God." President John Quincy Adams
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity." President John Quincy Adams
"a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public" First Lady Abigail Adams
"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests." President Andrew Jackson
If there is anything in my thoughts or style to commend, the credit is due to my parents for instilling in me an early love of the Scriptures. If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity." Daniel Webster
"It is extremely important to our nation , in a political as well as religious view , that all possible authority and influence should be given to the scriptures , for these furnish the best principles of civil liberty , and the most effectual support of republican government. The principles of all genuine liberty , and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by it's authority.The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be accessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer...." Noah Webster
"The Bible must be considered as the great source of all the truth by which men are to be guided in government as well as in all social transactions...." Noah Webster
"The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws...." Noah Webster
"All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice , crime , ambition , injustice , oppression , slavery , and war , proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible...." Noah Webster
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and his apostles , which enjoins humility , piety and benevolence ; which acknowledges in every person a brother , or a sister , and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity , and to this we owe our free constitutions of government...." Noah Webster
"It is the sincere desire of the writer (Noah Webster) that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible , particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion." Noah Webster
"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book. Abraham Lincoln
"Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teaching of the Redeemer (Jesus Christ) of mankind. It is impossible that is should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian . . . this is a Christian nation." US Supreme Court, 1892
Remember this, Newbie.
Yet you call them non-Christian. Which of the many Christian sects is the real one? Let me guess, yours. This "Everybody but me is going to hell" doctrine is not very loving, but I understand the awkward logic that turns hate into love.
Then I read a Bible.
So did I. That pretty much sealed my atheism for me. Although I did get a great admiration for a man named Jesus.
I was talking the Founding Fathers, so you could have paired down your standard list.
Benjamin Franklin was a Deist, not a Christian, so that the god he speaks of is not necessarily the god you're thinking of.
Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. He thought him to be no more than a very wise man. To this end, he made a Bible, cleaned of all mysticism that would impart deity to Jesus, leaving only the moral message Jefferson appreciated. He also feared any religious involvement in government as detrimental to the liberty of the people
John Adams has many other quotes showing downright malice towards religious involvement in the republic. He believed the governments were founded on "the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery..." James Madison was even more hostile.
Your George Washington quote from his farewell address is a fraud perpetrated by Christians pushing your agenda. If you doubt, read it in the scanned original publication and transcribed. BTW, my sentiments about party (thus "antiRepublicrat") are partly founded in this document.
Patrick Henry as a religious zealot was really the odd man out.
It's not a gray area. It is pretty black and white. Sex involves a commitment. The gray area is all the flapping about by people who don't want to be held responsible in any way for their actions. The gray area is the flack the rest of the world takes because of such things. The gray area is a lot of hurt feelings. The gray area is a lot of out of wedlock births that put a large percentage of our population on the public dime. Note I didn't say the government dime. The gray area is the path of destruction left behind smooth talking jerks and loose knivers.
Plus, you certainly wouldn't have a moral right to use force or threats to stop us in this situation.
I would have a moral right. Though I might not have a legal right. When actions taken threaten the welfare and interests of my family, I have every moral right. It's no different than national interest, pal.
And there is- sbe would be able to sue me for paternity
You mean if she can find you. If you can pay. If you show up to court. If you have a job... IF If If.. Isn't that where we are now. Cleaning up the mess left behind by deadbeat men and women. And you don't see a moral obligation there. Of course not, You talk just like worldly people who don't want to be held accountable for anything.
people in a 99.9% Hasidic community were restricted in their free exercise when the government came in and told them they couldn't have their prayers in the school. Alabamans felt their free exercise was trampled upon by the ruling to remove Moore's rock.-NutCrackerBoy,115
we should privatize the schools with various strings attached to ensure equitable education and minimum standards, and then let any group apply for public school funds. That also means you can't exclude religious groups from applying for these equal funds to run religious schools because that would require a law.-antiRepublicrat,127
Interesting answer. You agree, then, that the system, as it exists now, denied free exercise to this community of Hasidics? But instead of striking down the Supreme Court doctrine that caused the situation, (Establishment interpretation + Doctrine of Incorporation), you would privatize all schools?
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