I could only laugh last April when I first heard about a study claiming that a smoking ban in Helena, Mont., cut the city
Damn, Max. You have a link to that?
Since I am a computer ignoramus I'm always impressed by posts like your #246.
Right on!!
The pulling of threads that debunked the Helena Heart Study is the same thing as book burning as far as I'm concerned.
There wasn't any thread that I know of that was pulled. It was an actual copy of the study I found that was posted in a .pdf version that could be downloaded from tobaccofreekids.org. That link to the study went dead somewhere in the five hours since I posted it on a message board and the next person tried to download it.
Now the author of the "study" is telling at least some people that it's not available. Yet it appears some folks in the anti-smoker industry have access to it and are using it.
It's obviously not peer reviewed, and it's apparently not available to those who ask for it who have a different opinion than Stan Glantz and the authors. What does that tell you?
Thanks for your reply. In response to your question "What does that tell you?",it tells me that the antis are very powerful.
I find this whole thing frightening, and would do so even if I were a non-smoker. The fact that one rabid group of fanatics has so much power should scare any red blooded American citizen.
The mainstream press should be ashamed of itself for not doing more digging into this so called smoking danger.
Do we really know that? Or might a human cell's exposure to carcinogens be analagous to a duck's exposure to shotgun pellets, in that fewer pellets do not guarantee no duck will be unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Well there is no to prove a negative however with second hand smoke we can be very sure simply by the fact that there is nothing in second hand smoke that we aren't exposed to in greater quantities just by living day to day.
And certain things like car exhust, Candles, Barbecues, Fireplaces, Campfires expose us to those same chemicals in very high concentrations.
See
1 gallon of gas = 4695 cigarettes
EPA: Candles and Incense as Potential Sources of Indoor Air Pollution:
EPA: What air pollution does your fireplace or wood stove create?
A typical two-hour barbecue can release the same level of dioxins as up to 220,000 cigarettes
Barbecue's fatty fumes add to haze
So if Second hand smoke was so deadly then the above would be even more so and people would be dropping dead after only brief exposers to the above. It should be pointed out that beside the gasoline humans have been burning the above and eating cooked food for many milena now so we would have evolved (or created if you prefer) to tolerate this stuff or we would all come down with cancer before we are 5.
So your anology about Ducks and shot gun pellets is way off, Because of the greater exposer from other sources a better anology would be trying to kill a grizzly with a beebee gun.
I will repost a earlier post of mine of the so called deadly chemicals in SHS to show you there is nothing in it to overly worry about
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I can find 23 "Deadly" chemicals that are often claimed to be in Second hand smoke
Acetone, Acrolein, Ammonia, Arsenic, Benzene, Butadiene, Butane, Cadmium, Carbon Monoxide, Cyanide, Dioxin, Formaldehyde, Hydrazine, Indole, Isoquinoline, Lead, Nicotine, Nitrogen componds, Polonium-210, Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, Propylene Glycol, Turpentine, Urethane
This list is a complete joke and any doubts about SHS being harmful should be put to rest, It may look bad but there is nothing in there that you aren't exposed to in greater quantities just going about your business in your everyday life
Acetone
It may smell but not toxic. It is the active ingredient in nail polish remover. If it's so toxic than every women whoever changed nail colors would suffer serious health problems. Acetone is also used for things like bleaching Flour and used to extract spices So if we are to ban smoking in bars because of Acetone than we must ban them from making anything with flour, using any spices on their food or serving bread.
Ammonia
Again stinky but not toxic, Ammonia is used for cleaning and almost every cleaning product contains it (usually they add fragrances to hide the smell). In commercial industries such as restaurants and bars plain ole ammonia is the preferred method for cleaning floors. Ammonia is also naturally produced in our body and is sweated out. If we are to ban smoking because ETS contains Ammonia than we also must ban bars/restaurants from ever cleaning their floors and we must prohibit the room temperature from ever getting to warm so people don't sweat.
Acrolein
If we are going to ban smoking in bars because ETS contains Acrolein than we have to ban the burning of EVERYTHING!!! NO more internal combustion engines, No more fireplaces, No more Candles and NO more cooking of any food. Every organic compound in the universe that is burned releases Acrolein. And again even if you could do all your cooking "Off site" it won't matter because Acrolein gets incorporated into the food. All bars/restaurants must now only serve Raw food.
Arsenic
Arsenic is a heavy metal that is found in trace amounts in almost all water drinking or otherwise. Tobacco like all plants needs water to grow so any plant will contain trace amounts Arsenic, So if we are to ban smoking in bars/restaurants because of Arsenic than we must also ban them from serving anything with water and since all plants used water to grow all fruits and vegetables must be also banned to.
Benzene
Benzene is in gasoline and it takes 4695 cigarettes smoked just to equal 1 gallon of gas burned. So just the fact that cars spewing exhaust are pulling up to or just driving by the place guarantees benzene will be in the air. If we are going to ban smoking in bars/restaurants because ETS contains Benzene than we have to ban cars and trucks from ever getting anywhere near them.
Butadiene
A component of gasoline. Same as Benzene above.
Butane
Not toxic. A simple hydrocarbon used as a fuel it is found in Gasoline again. It Also found in natural gas so if so if we are to ban smoking in bars/restaurants because of Butane than we must ban them from frying any foods. Butane is also used as a propellant in many aerosol cans most noteably spray vegatable cooking oils like Pam and shaving creme so they must be banned to, Dam ozone layer lets go back to using CFCs.
Cadmium
Same as Arsenic above, Though this one is found in also in milk so we also must ban any and all dairy products.
Carbon Monoxide
Same as Acrolein above, Again the burn anything you get CO
Note: Since it is the law in most places that all businesses must have CO detectors you would think if SHS produced anything approaching dangerous levels of CO those alarms would be going off like crazy.
Cyanide
Same as Acrolein above. Burn anything organic you produce trace amounts of Cyanide that will be in the air and Well at least when there is Nitrogen in the atmosphere, So I guess smoking and cooking will be OK on the planet Venus.
Dioxin
Same as Acrolein and Cyanide above. Burn anything organic you produce Dioxin. But it should be noted that according to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3106039.stm it takes 220,000 cigarettes to equal the output of one 2 hour barbecue, So again forget cooking any food.
Formaldehyde
Most famous for it's use by embalmers to preserve dead bodies, However if we are going to ban smoking in bars because ETS contains Formaldehyde than we must also ban alcohol because when your body breaks down alcohol the main breakdown product is Formaldehyde which along with it being broken down in your liver you do expel an amount of it in your breath and sweat. You also produce formaldehyde for many other bodily functions which is also released in sweat/breath. And I really hope these non-alcoholic bars/restaurants aren't in a place that is to hot or to cold because formaldehyde is used to make insulation so that must be also banned.
Hydrazine
Most famous for being used as Rocket Fuel however it's main everyday use is it is added to boilers water to prevent corrosion So if we are to ban second hand smoke because of Hydrazine than we must ban a bar/restaurant from installing boilers (That's OK though because of Ammonia and Formaldehyde we don't want people to sweat anyhow). Also interestingly enough it has been studied as an anticancer agent.
Indole
I am utterly shocked when I see this listed on a antismoking Nazi dangerous chemical list, It shows they are just putting things in to make their list longer thus look scarier. Indole is found in cruciferous plants like tobacco. Not only is Indole not dangerous it may actually be very good for you!!! It is often sold by itself as an antioxidant, estrogen blocker and anti-cancer agent. So because SHS contains Indole it may actually be beneficial.
Isoquinoline
This is common alkaloid found in many plants that we consume. It also being studied as an anticancer reagent.
Lead
Same as Arsenic above
Nicotine
Besides Tobacco Nicotine is found in many plants of the nightshade family that we consume like Cucumbers, Eggplant, Peppers, Potatoes and Tomatoes.
Nitrogen compounds (Oxides)
Again since we live on Earth instead of Venus if you burn anything in our atmosphere you will produce Nitrogen Compounds. Often they are found in high concentrations in polluted cities.
Anti-smoking Nazis will often list the names of the different types of common Nitrogen compounds and oxides to make their list longer. (Acetonitrile, Dimethylnitrosamine, Ethylmethylnitrosamine, Isoamylamine, Nitric acid, Nitrogen oxides, Nitrous acid, Nitrosopyrrolidine ) just to make their dangerous chemical list longer.
Polonium-210
Same as Arsenic above
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PHA)
PHAs are a class of simple similar organic compounds that are again formed when anything is burned. Anti-smoking Nazis will often list the names of the different isomers just to make their dangerous chemical list longer.
On a side note is PHAs (Most notably Benzoapyrene) are often cited as the most potent cancer causing chemical in the world by the antismoking Nazis which is BS, Yes it does cause cancer when test on mice however humans have been eating cooked food for many milena now so we would have evolved (or created if you prefer) to tolerate this stuff or we would all come down with cancer before we are 5.
Propylene Glycol
The anti-smoking Nazis have got to be kidding when they cite this one. Propylene Glycol is harmless, It's used in many if not most cosmetic products, If we are going to ban smoking in bars because ETS contains Propylene Glycol than we have to ban all customers and employees who enter a bar from ever shampooing their hair. (Just go look at the ingredients on the bottle of your shampoo) Come on now, If Propylene Glycol is so harmful why are we allowed by the FDA to put this stuff on our head.
Pyridine
Pyridine is used to make many different everyday products such as medicines, vitamins, food flavorings, paints, dyes. Pyridine can also be formed from the breakdown of many natural materials in the environment. Everyone is exposed to very low levels of pyridine in air, water, and food. If we are going to ban smoking in bars because ETS contains pyridine we are also going to have to ban doctors, vitamins and food with artificial flavorings, Bars and restaurants can't paint the walls and all their curtains, napkins, table clothes must be white only. Oh and because Pyridine occurs naturally in the environment ever bar/restaurant must provide it's customers with oxygen mask.
Note: Just like with the PAHs, Anti-smoking Nazis will often list the names of different isomers of Pyridine (i.e. 3-hydroxypyridine, 3-vinylpyridine, 3-Cyanopyridine) just to make their dangerous chemical list longer.
Turpentine
Turpentine is commonly used as a paint thinner. If we are going to ban smoking in bars because ETS contains turpentine than of course we must ban all bars/restaurants from using or staining wood because it also releases turpentine and of course any pine trees (Remember Ronald Reagan talking about tree causing pollution - Well this was what he was talking about) that are anywhere near a bars/restaurant must come down.
Urethane (Ethyl Carbamate)
Bad news, If we ban SHS in a bar because of Urethane than we also must ban the bar from serving Alcohol because urethane is found in drinks made by the fermentation process which of course pretty much means all Alcoholic Berverges
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So to be consistent, If we are to ban smoking in bars\restaurants because of all the nasty things you listed than to be consistent we have to ban all the others. So the only way a bar or restaurant should be allowed to open is if
Serves nothing to drink not even water, The building can't be made of wood and can not be painted or contain any insulation of any kind and must be in the middle of a field with no trees around it and can never be cleaned and of course everybody must walk to it and neither you or the staff can wash themselves before going in and the only thing they can serve is oxygen. Sounds like fun.
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Tobacco smoke is not the *only* factor in the development of asthma, it is one of many factors. Smoking could end tomorrow & asthma will still be here.
"However, I would also be inclined to give smokers a little leeway if they would STOP FLICKING THEIR BUTTS ON THE GROUND!!! When you are at a stoplight or stopsign later today,"
Hey, they are just doing their part to help the job problem going on right now... someone has to be hired to clean that up! :) And if your state uses prisoners to clean up instead, consider it "doing their part to ensure prisoners don't get lazy."
"Suppose, for the sake of argument, that a child can be shown to be suffering harm from her parents' ________."
You fill it in with smoking. How about if we fill it in with dietary program, genes, hobbies, etc? At what point would you like us to liscence people to have children? According to your logic, if an individual has any genetic disease they should not be allowed to have children.
are healthy? So should we ban them to?