205 migrants die hard, lonely deaths (Barf Alert)

AZcentral ^ | Oct. 16, 2003 | Susan Carroll

[f7Oshawn]

It is a lonely place to die, out in the soft sandy washes. The desert floor, with its volcanic rock, can reach 160 degrees. Most people go down slowly.

Blood starts to seep into the lungs. Exposed skin burns and the sweat glands shut down. Little hemorrhages, tiny leaks, start in the heart.

[Travis Bickel/Marine Inspector]

The same way we do with every other crime: Good old-fashioned police work. Some shoplifters are violent. We don't automatically shoot shoplifters because we can't determine their motives right away. If the shoplifter weilds a weapon, we shoot him. If he is peaceful, we don't. The same applies to any crime. That isn't such a hard concept it it?

It does not work that way.

When the BP rounds up a group of 20 illegals, they don't have time to interrogate each and everyone. It's fingerprints, photos and back to Mexico. Now they just gave that Al Quada operative another shot at getting in.

On the same token, how do they tell the mass murderer from the farmer. The serial bomber from the produce picker.

Does the name Rameriz mean anything.

[jpl]

Do you buy products that are grown/made/sold with the assistance of illegal immigrant labor? If so, then they aren't the only one to blame.

Your argument is inane. First of all, the strawberries and other stuff we buy don't have labels on them that say "these strawberries were picked by certified legal American citizens".

And yes, I would rather pay more for my strawberries in the supermarket and save the tax money it costs to educate, feed, and many cases incarcerate the border jumpers. So would about 70% percent of Americans.

[Travis Bickel/Marine Inspector]

Of course, I don't advocate blowing off the head of everyone walking down the street. Easy concept to understand, see?

I don't either, but good old fashion police work, does not work on the border. Too many illegal, too few officers.

[RoughDobermann]

To counter RoughDoberman's assertion that we should shoot illegal immigrants on-sight

You do recall me saying that warning shots should be fired first, don't you?

[Publius6961]

I wonder how much trouble it would be to compile a list of real victims who have died a horrible violent and painful death at the hands of illegal aliens?

I bet the number is larger....

[ridesthemiles]

"They are risking their lives so they don't have to live like animals"

They get here illegally, try to hide from the mainstream of society, and they end up living like animals here.

You haven't seen the film of INS busts of shacks behind board fences filled to the brim with illegals. They live stacked like cordwood.

The Feds have got to stop them at the border. We are being invaded. Even Diane Feinstein expressed amazement a few years ago when the Border Patrol took her on a ride-along and showed her the numbers of crossings with night vision goggles. But the shock didn't do enough, apparently. She hasn't done anything substantial to stem the flow, and stop the crippling of the Calif economy.

[Polybius]

This kind of article and insensitivity to human suffering really makes me ashamed of the types of people who call themselves "conservative" -

This is a country of immigrants. Immigration is a complex issue, and one that is subject to incredible rhetoric and callousness in its discussion. Just remember this - you come from immigrants, somewhere, sometime. The bible speaks very plainly about immigrants - do not deny justice to the alien, because you yourself were once aliens.

While I agree with you that it is bad taste to joke over deaths, I would adress a couple of points of your post.

Yes, we are a country of immigrants. As a matter of fact, I am immigrant. However, the phrases "we are a country of immigrants" was coined in the days when the time-honored title of "immigrant" was understood to mean a legal immigrant who came to this country in accordance with the Rule of Law and the term was not used as a Politically Correct euphemism for "illegal alien".

In regards to deaths in the desert, I fail to see how that qualifies as a matter of "justice".

Death in the desert qualifies as death because somebody foolishly challenged Mother Nature and lost.

Mother Nature is not Politically Correct. She is a rather mean mother. If you do something stupid, Mother Nature will have no qualms about killing you.

Within the line of sight from my own house, white, middle-class recreational kyacker have died in our bay because of their bad judgement in challenging weather they should not have challenged.

Within the line of sight from my own house, white, middle-class mountaineers have died on the slopes of Mount Rainier on a rather regular basis by climbing in weather they shouldn't be climbing in.

Those people foolishly challeged Mother Nature and Mother Nature killed them.

Trekking through the American Southwest desert without the "Ten Essentials" to last you from start to finish qualifies, not as a matter of "justice", but as a matter of extreme stupidity and recklessness when dealing with Mother Nature.

[Polybius]

"but the guys who sneak in through the desert and die out in the middle of nowhere have nobody to blame but themselves."

Do you buy products that are grown/made/sold with the assistance of illegal immigrant labor? If so, then they aren't the only one to blame.

By the same reasoning, in regards to my reference to Mount Rainier in my other post, I am also to blame for the mountaineering deaths that occur rather regularly on Mount Rainier's slope.

I have......gulp.... sniff...... I have....... this is hard to admit.......... I have contributed money to the National Park Service.

[Nea Wood]

If you really have a problem with immigration, then put your money where your mouth is.

If you think we should have open borders and that we should give everything to illegals, then put your money where your mouth is. Go down to the border with water and a first aid kit. Find some illegals and take them into your home. Feed them, house them, clothe them, educate them. Take in as many as you can afford. Do it even if you and your children suffer and do without, even if you have to take on a second or third job.

But no. You're not going to do that. I bet you have locks on your door. You're just very good at telling other people that they should gladly suffer, lose their money, and sacrifice their children's future for illegal aliens.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the government should take money by force from people and give it to lawbreakers. That's theft. People who want the government to do that are coveters. I don't have a Bible with me, but Paul said that anyone who is not willing to care for those of his own household is worse than an unbeliever. God requires us to care for our own first. He does not require us to sacrifice our children's future in order to care for lawbreakers. The Bible also says we should be in submission to those in authority over us. That means obeying the law.

If you want to be "compassionate" to illegals, bully for you. Donate to charities that give to illegals. That's what God wants...voluntary charity, given out of the goodness of one's heart. NOT government taking our money by force and giving it to envious, covetous, lawbreaking people, all in the name of votes, cheap labor, and ethnic power!

[lavaroise]

while thousands die here of untreated diseases because illegals drive the costs up.

[Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh]

"And yes, I would rather pay more for my strawberries in the supermarket and save the tax money it costs to educate, feed, and many cases incarcerate the border jumpers. So would about 70% percent of Americans."

I am curious to know where you get the "70%" statistic. Please cite your source.

So basically, you agree with my point? It's hypocritical for people who benefit from illegal immigration labor to complain about problems caused by illegal immigration? Likewise, it's cruel and unjust to be so inhumane to their plight and suffering when our country actively attracts them here by failing to enforce immigration laws?

We do almost nothing to stop immigration. We do not punish businesses who employ illegal immigrants. We do not arrest and deport illegal immigrants. We benefit from their presence. Given those facts, I think it's wrong to complain about them being here, and I also think it's wrong for people to make light of their problems like this article and many of the cruel and insensitive comments in response.

[jpl]

Over the last several years, in poll after poll after poll, about 70% of Americans consistently demonstrate a desire to stop the flood. I don't have the time or the inclination right now to start looking for specific links; you can do your own research.

And furthermore, most people are smart enough to know that to the regular people it's not a net economic benefit, it's a net economic drain. And that's not even take into account the cultural and quality of life issues.

[swarthyguy]

BUMP! Great post and very well expressed.

[Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh]

First you said

""""And yes, I would rather pay more for my strawberries in the supermarket and save the tax money it costs to educate, feed, and many cases incarcerate the border jumpers. So would about 70% percent of Americans."""""

Then, when asked to provide a citation for that statistic, you changed your point, and said

""""Over the last several years, in poll after poll after poll, about 70% of Americans consistently demonstrate a desire to stop the flood. I don't have the time or the inclination right now to start looking for specific links; you can do your own research.""""


Please make up your mind. 70% wanting to "stop the flood" and 70% being willing to "pay more for my strawberries in the supermarket" are two totally and completely different ideas.

Your inability to cite a source for that statistic is due to the fact that there is no source. That's because it's a totally bogus statistic. Please don't toss out statistics that are untrue, especially when you're unwilling to back them up. It's possible, if not probable, that 70% of people want to control immigration - heck, I'd bet that's 95-100%. But being willing to pay way more for groceries and services, etc is totally different - and there's no way 70% would be in support of that.




Let's look at your second point.
You said
""""And furthermore, most people are smart enough to know that to the regular people it's not a net economic benefit, it's a net economic drain. """"


In reality, you couldn't be more wrong. The net economic effect of illegal immigration labor is to lower the prices of groceries and retail consumer services. It lowers the prices of daily consumables, day-to-day goods. Logically, this has a much more positive effect for "the regular people" since it is the "regular people" who pay a much larger percentage of their income for those things. Thus, a poor person, or working class person, or lower-middle class person receives a much more significant benefit from illegal immigrant labor than do the wealthy people, in terms of % of income.

The complete withdrawal of illegal immigrant labor would have a drastically regressive effect on "the regular people" - the very wealthy would not be significantly affected.

Likewise, in terms of tax burden, I have zero doubt that the overall tax burden of education and health care and law enforcement attributable to illegal immigration is either close to or significantly less than the overall economic benefit of the illegal immigration labor. Either way, it is not "the regular people" who pay most of the tax burden in this country. It is the wealthy. So therefore, your statement that "the regular people" would derive a net economic gain is likewise not supported by facts or logic. The lowering of the tax burden would not help "the regular people" as much as it would help the wealthy.

I welcome debate and discussion, but invite you to back up your statements with citations, or at least with decent logic and facts.

[Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh]

"If you think we should have open borders and that we should give everything to illegals, then put your money where your mouth is."

Ordinarily, I do not respond to straw-man arguments. But I believe your intentions are good, and that in general, you raise some valid points, so I will respond.

I never said that I believe we should have "open borders" or that we should "give everything to illegals." In fact, I do not believe either of those things.

My point is that we need to look at the bigger picture, and not just have knee-jerk reactions to "illegal immigration." It's a complicated issue. And, I think it's hypocritical for our country to benefit from illegal immigrant labor, then treat illegal aliens with such disrespect and contempt.

If we REALLY wanted to stop illegal immigration, we could do it. But we don't. Why? Follow the dollar. We benefit from illegal immigration - that's our dirty little secret. All those businesses who survive off cheap labor, all those people who pay less for goods and services than they otherwise would have to pay - they don't want illegal immigrant labor to dry up. They want to have their cake and eat it too...

I'm for intellectual honest and basic human decency - either way. Either we tighten up our borders, arrest and deport illegal immigrants, and pay the increased costs of goods and services, OR we acknowledge our desire for the cheap labor, and treat them with basic human dignity and the kind of respect and justice talked about in the Bible.

[At _War_With_Liberals]

"18 of 19 highjackers had state issued driver's license's "


And that is UNACCEPTABLE.

Activists are shooting for 100%!

[jpl]

In reality, you couldn't be more wrong. The net economic effect of illegal immigration labor is to lower the prices of groceries and retail consumer services. It lowers the prices of daily consumables, day-to-day goods. Logically, this has a much more positive effect for "the regular people" since it is the "regular people" who pay a much larger percentage of their income for those things. Thus, a poor person, or working class person, or lower-middle class person receives a much more significant benefit from illegal immigrant labor than do the wealthy people, in terms of % of income.

I don't know who you think you're kidding, but it isn't me, and the emotional plays for sympathy don't fool most people either. No one disputes that the cheap labor heavily benefits the business owners, but the benefits to the regular folks don't even come close to offsetting the negatives. If illegal immigration were such an economic benefit, California would be swimming in money. Instead, the state is virtually bankrupt, and everyone knows why. The illegal immigrants pay little or no taxes and are a tremendous burden in terms of services, and the deterioriation in the quality of life drives out the high taxpaying base to other locations. This is one of the biggest reason why Gray Davis just got his worthless ass kicked out of office. Everyone in California knows it's true, so go sell your Business Roundtable crap to someone else.

[At _War_With_Liberals]

The appeasers want to change the argument from whether II's should be stopped to implementing programs to help them do it successfully and with impunity.

I love it when they say that II is benefits citizens and the economy as much as the illegals...