The second American civil war: what it's about

townhall.com | 10/14/03 | Dennis Prager

[Torie]

ever closer to civil war.

Folks who really believe that, really amaze me, because I think they are so divorced from reality. They don't seem to notice just how powerful American culture is across the US, and indeed the planet, is, as a unifying force.

[Heyworth]

The obvious answer that uses the most of common sense, says yes we should have. We know the outrageous activities of Saddam Hussein and for no other reason than to free the Iraqi people of his terrorist government, he should have been overthrown.

The problem with this argument, which seems to be the current favorite since they can't actually produce the WMDs for the cameras, is that A) the administration didn't really make that argument in the run-up to the war, and B) If that's the criteria, there's lots of other places with equally bad human rights records that we show no interest in invading and liberating the people of. Is anyone from the White House arguing that we should invade Zimbabwe, or China, or Cuba, or Burma, or any of a dozen other repressive Third World hellholes with mass graves there for the finding? So there must have been some other reason for invading Iraq at this time.

And, just for the record, I supported the invasion for exactly that reason. I just don't believe that's why the administration did it. I think they did it because they wanted to settle old business with Saddam, and they wanted to reshuffle the deck in the Middle East. They did the first. We're waiting to see how the second turns out.

[ETERNAL WARMING]

The Second Civil War will not be about the Dem/Rep divide, it will be the Citizens against the Government tyranny, as it was in the first Civil War.

We have many divides with apparently deaf politicians. Tho there are many differences, the three biggies appear to be:

Immigration and Illegal Immigration vs. taxpayers and American workers, Free Trade vs. American Workers and Sovereignty vs. Globalist government.

THAT will cause the War, not Dem/Rep ideals.

[Kozak]

On the brighter side our side has far more and better weapons. Bring it on baby....

[clamper1797]

Re post 23 .... you are EXACTLY right

[clamper1797]

Oh ... and remember which faction "won" Civil War 1. May the outcome of Civil War 2 be different ... for liberties sake

[ETERNAL WARMING]

As a Northerner, I always related to the Blue coats. As a thinking adult, I side with Dixie, barring the slavery issue. Dixie had every Constitutional right to succede.

[ETERNAL WARMING]

As a Northerner, I always related to the Blue coats. As a thinking adult, I side with Dixie, barring the slavery issue. Dixie had every Constitutional right to secede and every right to look after it's interests.

[ETERNAL WARMING]

Multi-culturalism is a poor substitute for their birthright as citizens

An excellent line, GG.

[budwiesest]

Freedom and Liberty got together and had a baby--America.

America grew, prospered, came of age, and is now pregnant with socialism. Who planted the seed?

With the water about to break again ('04) we may soon witness a new dynasty of socialism and tyranny that our forefathers would have risen in arms against, and yet, one we will have no sway over.

The only optimistic thing of late that we have to console us is California's recent debunking of socialism.(In time, assuming Iraq fulfills it's role as a democratized nation, it too could build confidence.)

That's not a lot to hang a hat on. The further we get from the 'one that brung us' to the dance(our nation's founders), the more likely we are to find trouble brewing.

The divisions that Dennis speaks of are symptomatic of people's survival instincts which include a tribalism that replaces a sense of nationalism when assimilation is abandoned (and thwarted by the left at every turn).

I just hope that when things hit the fan that the side that I chose to affiliate with will have an appreciation for Scruggs-style five-string-banjo.

[Ladypixel]

Hey, now, I'm a Californian non-liberal non-Democrat, and I rather like my state -- even if the politics are all wacky. Don't give it all to the liberals! It's already screwy enough as it is...!

(Besides, even with a major quake, we won't fall into the ocean. So sayeth the geologists at CalTech, and so believeth I. Nyah!) ;)

Seriously, though, I must agree with you; the Democrats seem to be resorting to lies and distortions in virtually everything. It truly disturbs me; I prefer to see the good in people, but it's mighty hard when there's folks out there who lie, cheat, and steal in the name of doing good for the populace.

[Qwinn]

"THAT will cause the War, not Dem/Rep ideals"

Well... it seems kinda similar to me. I definetly agree they will be big issues in the war - but they'll be a subgroup of the overall ideas/conflicts.

Dems today support open borders and multilateralism. Republicans support tighter border controls (at least of illegals) and national sovereignty. Both of these are new arguments - The Dems are now supporting policies that I don't think have ever been endorsed by a party in all of U.S. history

Both sides seem rather split on the issue of free trade vs. globalist trade... with most people not sure -how- to deal with the pros and cons. But unlike the two just listed, this debate is REALLY old. What we're really talking about is the return to the debate over protectionism and tariffs, and this is what I call the "Forgotten Argument" in American politics. It used to be huge. There's plenty of history to draw on this one.

Me? I think the problem is - as usual - taxes! If we didn't have taxes -here-, then we wouldn't have to worry about the fact that offshore companies get tax breaks giving them an economic advantage, causing companies to flee the country just as they are fleeing California's higher taxes to neighboring states. Want business to stay in the U.S.? Get rid of or privatize all our happy little socialist experiments, return to the olden days of revenue for the limited federal government functions, and then repeal the 16th Amendment (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm fairly certain that's the amendment that permitted direct taxation) that was never properly ratified in the first place. Sit back and watch businesses in other countries beg to set their businesses up -here-.

Although you see many leftists opposing the WTO and being "anti-globalist", I think it's more of a bizarre juxtaposition of goals vs. means between the Left and Right. The Lefties think the WTO is run by the U.S. - whereas I, as a right-winger, oppose the WTO because I have a severe problem with a bunch of guys in Brussels setting U.S. trade policy - that little sovereignty issue. Given the Left's insistence on multilateralism and rooting for global government, I have to blink every time someone calls -them- "anti-globalists". I still haven't figured this one out.

Torie: I am separated from reality? Nah. The war won't happen unless the Left just goes completely off the rails and actively begins repressing conservative media spokesmen and applying religious tests to government positions and agitating about voter fraud at every single election and starts endlessly chanting memes like "imperialist warmonger" and "Nazi! Hitler!" about a conservative president...

Oh. Wait. They have, haven't they?

Hmm. I wonder what "unifying culture" around the world you're talking about. Would that be... Hollywood culture? Ah, yes, Hollywood, that awesome unifying cultural force that we can all rally around. *sigh*

Qwinn

[ETERNAL WARMING]

Dems today support open borders and multilateralism. Republicans support tighter border controls (at least of illegals) and national sovereignty.

Tho slightly better on sovereignty, the Republicans are equally pushing open borders and all forms of immigration. The Dems have their own reasons, but the Republicans want to please their business donors. They are equally complicite in the sell out of our citizenry. Both groups support the H1B and L class visas. Both groups ignore the fact that 730,000 American workers are displaced every year by illegal aliens. Both groups have no problem expecting the taxpayer to subsidize their cheap labor. It's nearing crisis proportions.

Thank God for those who are active in opposing their actions. The only thing holding them in any sort of check is our anger and activism.

Now that it's election time, the pols are flapping lips...but actions speak louder than words and people will be watching. I for one will not vote for anyone supporting the business as usual position.

[Greybird]

On the other hand, there is probably more hatred between the opposing sides today than there was during the First Civil War.

Clueless. Utterly clueless. Go to the microfiche, or any of a host of scholarly books, and actually read some of the vitriol that poured out of newspapers of the 1860s, before, during, and after the war. That was before shibboleths of "objectivity," honored more in the breach, took over and made journalism into pious posturing.

Newspapers had viewpoints then, and made no hypocritical bones about them. And John Brown could have been goaded into the Harpers Ferry raid from a few New England anti-slavery papers alone.

[Qwinn]

"Tho slightly better on sovereignty, the Republicans are equally pushing open borders and all forms of immigration."

Are you serious? Equal to the Democrats on open borders? No -way-.

While I absolutely agree that Republicans and Bush should do -more- to close the borders, fact is, they don't come close to Democrat's complete sellout on the issue. Look at California - both Davis and Bustamante (endorsed by a zillion Democrats) push for licenses for illegal aliens. Both Arnold and McClintock (endorsed by a zillion Republicans) opposed it.

I can understand (and agree) with your feeling that Republicans aren't going far enough in this area. But saying they're just as bad as Democrats on the issue? Not even close. Republicans at least aren't making things -worse-... and it was conservatives who called attention to the Visa Express program of the State Dept., among other serious issues. And it is conservatives, I believe, that are currently testing UAV's to patrol the borders to stop illegal immigrants.

Nah. I definetly think it's becoming more and more of a partisan issue. But (for the 3rd time) I will again agree that the Republican Party is not far enough to the Right on this issue.

Qwinn

[Ogmios]

It has, it is the red and the blue.

[Ogmios]

Excellent post, will you ping me for part 2?

Thanks

[backhoe]

Civil War II "The Comming Breakup of America" A Checklist, by Thomas W. Chittum
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/991163/posts

[Qwinn]

"On the other hand, there is probably more hatred between the opposing sides today than there was during the First Civil War."

I think he overstates the case by saying "during". But "before"? From my own reading, in terms of the level of vitriol, I don't think we're -before- the war, not during. It's heating up quickly now though.

What makes the current situation so different is that due to mass media, the two sides aren't really separated by geographic regions anymore. Where people were generally influenced mostly by their neighbors, it's much more likely now that people will be influenced by more distant sources. I personally live in New Jersey, and have -no- allegiance whatsoever to any old feelings for the Confederacy, but I'm a hard core conservative, and according to Southerners who want this to be a North-South thing I should be siding with them.

North-South won't be the nature of this conflict. It's all interspersed now, and if there is any geographic boundaries to it it's Coastal vs. Heartland. Which means I'll be having to move, I guess. Not that I'm complaining.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Bah, correction: "I don't think we're -before- the war, not during." should be "I think we're -before- the war, not during." And I'll add that I think we've got about 15 years. I fear 2017.

Qwinn