[AndrewC]

I see we have people here who apparently have no conscience or empathy. It is quite easy for someone's mental images to harm another. A mother or father is most certainly damaged by an insane loved one, without any overt action by the loved one. It is also quite easy for a parent to harm a child by inadvertantly showing more love to another.

Reality existed before I was and I'm fairly certain before you were. Thus it certainly existed apart from us and consequently our pain or lack thereof is not an adequate measure of it.

[DittoJed2]

You're absolutely correct. And one need not even be insane. Just get a little chemistry in the brain off as in depression and a person may not even be thinking bad thoughts but be in tremendous pain. That person's pain can also cause others pain though no action has been done by the others or by the person who is in pain. Reality as that which when you forget it causes pain is not an adequate definition. History doesn't cause pain, yet it is reality. The mere existance of creation doesn't either. Nor, if you forget something in creation does it necessarily cause pain. As you so often are, AndrewC, you're right.