My Kid wants a gun...

Home | 3/3/03 | Patton

[patton]

Ok, my son is ready to upgrade from his .22 (the one my dad gave me).

His requirements are 1000m accuracy, cheap ammo.

Our deal is I buy the hardware, he buys the optics.

1000$ limit ($800 rifle, $200 optics).

Ideas?

[8mmMauser]

All around, I would go for the Remington 700 as others mentioned I don't know of a more versatile round for us non-experts than a 308. Bolt action, 308 is just right for the money.

[yarddog]

If I could only have one gun it would be a .22, probably a CZ, or Winchester model 52 but I just might choose a Beretta model 70S pistol.

[tet68]

One must apply to the ATF pay a I believe $30 fee and wait.
usually not too long now. I applies on Sept 10 2001 and had to wait three months.

Go to milsurpshooter.net or cruffler.com
or the ATF website.

Grab a copy of shotgun news but I warn you
it's a terrible habit.
A Curio and Relic license means you can buy from wholesalers
weapons that qualify by being over 50 years old or of a curio nature, there is a loooong list of stuff that fits.
It can then be sent to you directly as a 03 FFL holder.
Some how just the idea of rifles for under a hundred dollars
turns me on.

The M-39s I mentioned are some of the finest boltaction
battle rifles made.
The C&R also covers, Yugo mausers, Yugo 59/66s (sks),
SMLEs, and more.

License holders are required to keep a bound record of aquisitions and disposures, and are subject to ATF audits
how ever that is just part of it, and most on the boards will tell you that they have rarely heard of one.

Still, I like to think the ATF is secretly arming America,
it must give Diane Feinstein fits, but she probably isn't even aware of it.

Check it out.

[templar]

His requirements are 1000m accuracy, cheap ammo.

Forget the $200 optics for a 1000m gun. At that range (a range I shoot at) the optics are going to be more important than the gun. Try going for a used savage 110, w/o scope, in 300 win mag for around $300.00. If you can't find a 300 mag, go for a 30-06, you can always rebarrel later. The 110 headspace is set by a locknut and you can rebarrel it yourself cheaply since you don't need a lathe, chamber reamers, and a lot of expertise. Even the head of the bolt can be replaced cheaply and easily to magnum caliber without having to completely alter the whole bolt with machine tools. Then get a book on basic rifle smithing and bed the stock and a few other things that increase accuracy without much expense and the need of machine tools.

Now to the optics. to shoot 1000m you're going to need a magnum caliber if you're really serious. That places a lot of whango on the scope and it's mounting. The reticles in cheaper scopes just won't hold up and stay reasonably repeatable under that shock, and the lenses and other parts can get knocked out of alignment as well. A scope is a very precision instrument and has to be very well constructed to take magnum beatings. The mounts are as iportant as the scope, and you'll need to spend at least $50.00 bare minimum, and thats really a bare bare minimum, to get a mounting system that will hold up and be capable of extreme accuracy. I reccomend having a gunsmith re-drill and tap the mounting holes on the rifle to 8-40 screws instead of 6-48 and redrill and counterbore the base(s) for that size screw for another $50.00 or so (magnums with heavy scopes can actually shear the screws off, or work them loose). Better still would be to spring for some custom mounts made with about an extra 30 or 40 minutes of elevation built in, to save your scopes reticle elevation adjustment at really long ranges (a gunsmith can make these rather reasonably).

Scopes for this range are going to need to be at least 16 and preferably 24 power on the high end. I like variable power socpes since it can be extremely frustrating to find a target on 24 power at any closer ranges. Variable power socpes again need to be of the highest quality you can afford to hold up. I was looking at a sightron scope today in about 16 power top end and was reasonably impressed with the optical quality. The owner seemed to think it was as good a quality as could be had for less than a thousand and should take magnum punishment for a long time without worry. It seemed pretty nice and was only around $400 or less. The mil-dot reticle wasn't a true mil dot though and wouldn't be as usefull as a real mil dot for ranging your shots. I was impressed enough with it that I am considering purchasing one for a rifle I'm building. What you could do though, assuming a really tight budget, would be to get the gun and scope mounts to top end quality and buy a temporary scope for learning shooting it and to get a feel for what you want. Tasco has a true mil dot scope available (6 - 24 power) with a big 50mm objective for around 70 or 80 dollars. It probably won't last a real long time on a magnum (just guessing) and the higher powers aren't going to be as clear and bright as high dollar scopes, but it should give an economical way of learning mil-dot reticles, highpower scopes, and long range shooting till you can aford something better. But be sure not to cut corners on the quality of mounts and rings.

There is no such thing as cheap ammo for 1000m shots. For both accuracy and cost consideration you will need to learn reloading. 300 mag ammo can be made for around 40 - 50 cents a round using match grade components. That may sound like a lot, but you will find yourself shooting only a few dozen or so rounds at a sitting, so the cost of the day on the range is not that high.

[patton]

Thank you.

[umgud]

I have a Marlin levergun in 45-70. I'd guess I'd need to mount it in the mortar position to do any good at 1000m, but I did see an article where someone did try to replicate the old Creedmore results and were successful.

[Centurion2000]

Have him by a Savage Arms bolt action for about 400.00 in 308. Take it to the gunsmith and have THEM rebore the chamber to fit 7.62X54.
Cheap ammo, decent rifle, long range.

Or go have him buy a Service Grade Garand and then pickup surplus ammo at gun shows.

[cavtrooper21]

I guess that nobody thinks a Mauser is worth diddly any more.... I'd rather build my own rifle than pick one off of the shelf, slap a scope on it, buy someone elses ammo and call it mine. Call it hubris, but I take pride in a good looking rifle that shoots well and looks like no one else's. Fine tuneing loads and the overall rifle is a challenge and well worth the effort.
Mauser is the best action there is for a bolt gun, all others are just imitations.
Rant over :^)

[Double Tap]

Thanks guys. I will check into it. I looked over the list of C&R rifles. I would really like to do that. The ATF audit gives me the shivers though. I will have to think about that.

[yarddog]

I certainly don't agree with that. I have watched my Daddy kill hogs and cattle with a .22 many, many times.

He used shorts on the hogs because he liked sause (hogs head cheese) and didn't like to tear up the head too much. They would invariably drop like they were struck by lightning.

The important thing of course is where you place that little 29 grain bullet. I do not recomend the .22 rimfire for deer but it will definitely kill them.

[The Shootist]

1903 Springfield or M-1 Garand in 30-06. Surplus ball is available.

[yarddog]

Savage must have improved their barrels in the last few years. There is nothing wrong with the 110 action, but they used to have a reputation for mediocre accuracy. I have owned 2 and both grouped around 3 moa which is about what they were supposed to do.

I know they changed ownership a few years ago and hope they have improved them.

[ibbryn]

I second the advice above. Savage .308, $500; Scope, $500. Forget about 1000 yards for a while, a good group at 500 will make you very happy.

I feel qualified to comment on this as I also once asked about a "1000 yard rifle."

[cavtrooper21]

Springfields are great, but getting hard to come by (at least a good one) and I'd hate to chop one up for a custom job. Mausers are common as dirt, and sturdy as heck. Besides, a Springfield is just a re-worked Mauser (grin) !
Hey, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

[Nakota]

Look at a Tikka, with the heavy barrel, adjustable cheekpad,.308 cartridge. Called the Semi-sporter. For more money you can get the Sporter a serious competiton rifle that will not break the bank.

No need for a trigger job, trigger is between 3-4 lbs. right out of the box. Barrel is free floated and is the same barrel that is on a Sako. Many will shoot at sub moa right out of the box after sighting in.

Now, I never had to look for 1,000 meter optics. I hunt and find that my favorite optics are made by Swift, same people who make the astrnomical telescopes.

[templar]

...a good pistol a first-time gun owner should buy to start out?

If you want a pistol, not a revolver, and intend to use if primarily to learn how to shoot handguns and just plain old fun plinking I would say a Ruger MKII 22 auto. They're fun and ammo is cheap. Light recoil, minimal noise, all the basics of handgunning with out the drawbacks of larger calibers. If, on the other hand, you're wanting a self defense gun and only intend to practice with it rarely, go for a snub nose 357 revolver. They're foolproof in a panic situation and quite effective at close range.

[katana]

When you're right, you're right. Can't disagree with the logic. I'm just not in the mood now to recommend somebody buy a German, well, anything.

[tet68]

http://pub109.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums

go here and look at the Parallax view or the C&RFFl threads
for info on the lic, also have lots of areas to choose from.

See you on the boards.
Tet68

Now if I can only find time to go to the range, I've got a turk mauser, an M-39 SKY,and a CZ24 I haven't even shot yet, and still try to shoot my M-91 at golf balls at 50yds.

Got to love those Finns!

[patton]

Savage .308 is looking really interesting...will check it out.