The Hobbit Hole III - Journey to the Cross-roads!

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Hobbit Hole!

Journey to the Cross-roads
The Two Towers Edition

Come on! Come in! -if you would like to have some seedcakes and a pint and relax a while. (If it is a special occasion, we still have a few bottles of the old wineyards left!)

Our first thread ( New Zealander builds Hobbit hole ) reached 4,100 posts, and we thought that was big. Our second thread (The New Hobbit Hole ) held us for over 48,000 posts, and we loved it dearly. We talked about moving to a new thread for the last 38,000 posts, but we are really slow to muster! Finally, the time has come. Tomorrow (at 12:01 am, to be precise!) The Two Towers comes out, and we start a new chapter.

[Overtaxed]

They didn't say anything about being able to wait for the next flight home from the space station.

[Overtaxed]

The reporter guy on Fox says that there's no report so far that any person was hit by debris.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

I think I read the next shuttle flight is scheduled for March? It's very possible that the space station wouldn't have had enough supplies (oxygen, water, food) to support 10 people (3 crew plus 7 from the shuttle) for that long.

Still listening to NBC, just heard that NASA said during the press conference that they didn't have the capability to do a spacewalk to check for damage during the flight, so we're not the only ones speculating along these lines.

[Overtaxed]

Okay...so I'll speculate some more. :)

Do ya think that they could cast a heat shield all in one piece now instead of having the thing made of lots of tiles?

[300winmag]

There are news reports that telemetry was lost from the left wing, just before complete contact was lost. The last communication mentions an unexpected high pressure in the landing gear tires; part of the landing gear are in the wings.

Here's a blog that seems to be on top of things: http://windsofchange.net/archives/002995.html

Apparently NASA saw high temperatures in the left wing, and were talking to the crew when the tire over-pressure warning came on. An exploding tire could do considerable damage to an already-weakened wing. They were already noticing that temperature sensors in the left wing were dropping out, probably because the wiring was burned through.

Early in the shuttle program, NASA got spy satellites to watch the shuttle reenter when there were worries about thermal tiles. The blog mentioned above said some satellite may have been watching this time, too, suggesting some concern on the ground.

I got my first news here on FR in the morning, and then turned on the TV for a few seconds to confirm. I refuse to watch 24/7 coverage of a bunch of people who have had no new news to read for hours, but figure they have a duty to yammer mindlessly to fill in the time. If anything new happens, I'll see confirmation of it here on FR first.

Meanwhile, while FR is my source for intelligent news, this place has become my online refuge, and I feel like I'm among friends here. The feeling is a lot like FOTR, where everybody stumbles out of Moria in shock after watching Gandalf fall. There's shock, sorrow, disbelief, and anger (if this turns out to be some sort of screwup). While there's no orcs on our tails, we do have an appointment with some in the near future, and we'll have to get back to that business shortly.

Sorry for the rambling, but this was the best I could do without breaking down and bawling.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

Do ya think that they could cast a heat shield all in one piece now instead of having the thing made of lots of tiles?

Wow, I wouldn't think so. They use ceramics to make the tiles; I should think casting a relatively thin, but large-surface-area piece of ceramic would be difficult to do without it cracking. More than that, I would think that the stresses (bending and such) during launch and re-entry would tend crack a single-cast piece. As you know, ceramics can be awfully brittle!

Fox is reporting some people suffered minor burns from fires caused by debris, but nothing serious.

[Overtaxed]

LOL Well now you know how little I know about ceramics!

Yeah I heard that about the burns...it's a wonder that no one was seriously hurt.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

I got my first inkling while reading a news website at about 8:35 am central time this morning; they had a very brief story about NASA losing contact with the shuttle during landing at about 8:00 am. I turned on the TV to Fox News, and immediately saw the first video; it was obviously not a normal landing. I watched for a few minutes and posted a couple of messages, then I went and woke up my wife to tell her the news.

I completely understand, coming here and chatting with FRiends helps relieve some of the sadness for me too. I've done a lot of crying today.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

Heh, well, I'm no expert on ceramics; only had one class in material engineering way back in college. About the only thing I learned from it is that ceramics are hard, but brittle!

(sigh) Fox news quoting an AP story saying human remains found near Hemphill, TX, presumably from the shuttle.

[Overtaxed]

Well...maybe there's something better than ceramics that has been developed in the past 20 years? - just speculating again.

I heard that report about the human remains.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

maybe there's something better than ceramics that has been developed in the past 20 years?

Hmm, none that I'm aware of... but my training is in Electrical Engineering, and I've spent all the time since I graduated from college as a computer jock. My interest in space science and related fields is strictly amateur!

[Overtaxed]

Hmm, none that I'm aware of...

Just thought I would ask! :)

Asking questions is a good way to learn things.

[300winmag]

Well...maybe there's something better than ceramics that has been developed in the past 20 years? - just speculating again.

I don't know if there is yet a substitute for the black tiles. The white tiles could have been replaced by titanium plates 20 years ago, but that would have cost billions. Even the Russian "Buran" used black and white tiles. (I use the term "used" because their one working Buran apparently was destroyed several months ago when the roof of their assembly building collapsed due to neglect, wrecking the vehicle.)

The shuttle has been a series of compromises from the start, more driven by political concerns than technical ones. Von Braun wanted a shuttle and a space station, in order to build his manned Mars vehicle. He figured it would cost $10 billion per year, over a period of 20 years, chump change to the federal government today except for NASA and the military. Nixon told him the best he could get was a shuttle.

Even then, the long knives went after the shuttle before it even made it to the drawing board. A manned flyback booster was too expensive, as were liquid-fuelled strap-on boosters. Only solid fuel boosters could be made cheaply enough.

Even there, one company wanted to cast the boosters in one piece, eliminating the need for risky segment joints. But the congressman from Utah wanted the job given to Morton Thiokol, which could not handle castings that big. So joints and O-rings it was.

There was also a hint of scandal about the O-rings that I read once, and never saw again. Apparently the original putty the O-rings were seated in contained asbestos. There was some concern about flame erosion, but the asbestos putty worked pretty well at protecting the O-rings.

But the EPA ordered the asbestos removed, and the new putty did not provide the protection from flame that the old one did. The erosion problem was getting worse, but NASA was "managing" it (a committee was studying it), and while some wanted cold-weather flights scrubbed, the "managers" felt their talks meant everything was under control.

The risk-avoidance, career-management mindset at FBI and CIA that suppressed warnings from the field about possible terrorist activity is also alive in NASA, and just about every other government agency, too.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

Asking questions is a good way to learn things.

Well, that's true.

There isn't likely to be any more major news today regarding the crash, except finding remains. And yet I can't turn the news off yet. (sigh) I was that way during Challenger too, and during 9/11.

Are you watching Fox?

[Overtaxed]

Blankety blank blank politics and bureaucracies!

[Overtaxed]

I was watching Fox until a half hour ago. Now I'm watching Fotr.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

Now I'm watching Fotr.

Probably wise.

Fox just had video of a relatively-intact astronaut helmet sitting in a field... and video of a hearse parked out in another field, near an area surrounded by police tape. Speculation that they have located remains.

[Overtaxed]

Think I'll stick with Fotr for a while. It's sad enough already without going into the gruesome aspect.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

You're right. I probably shouldn't be posting here on this topic anyway.

[SuziQ]

You're right. I probably shouldn't be posting here on this topic anyway.

That's all right, Bear. As many have said before, you're among friends; folks with whom you feel comfortable. What better place to bring your thoughts, ideas and feelings about anything and everything?