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[ Daily Tolkien / Lord Of The Rings] Men Are From Gondor, Women Are From Lothlórien
GREEN BOOKS – The One Ring ^ | 11-10-99 | Anwyn

Posted on 11/21/2002 10:02:34 AM PST by JameRetief

If the notion that men and women act as though they’re from different planets bothers you, you might want to jump over to Fan Art or some place, because I’d hate to be offensive. At the same time, I’ve decided to follow Quickbeam’s lead by jumping into a sticky topic this time around: Tolkien’s handling and alleged neglect/abuse of female characters in The Lord of the Rings.

‘Why are there so few girls in LOTR?? Why do only MEN get to go on the Quest and be in the Fellowship?? Why do only MEN get to do all the heroic things?? Tolkien must be a misogynist …’ Let’s give it up, ladies. Writing as a woman, I am taking the stance that Tolkien was far from a misogynist, that the female characters in his masterpiece collectively represent everything that is great about being a woman, and that less representation does not equal lesser importance.

Why does Tolkien get such a bad rap? That, at least, is obvious. Counting the Nine Walkers, the Nine Riders, Sauron Himself, Denethor, Theoden, Saruman, Wormtongue, Beregond, Tom Bombadil, Gollum, Farmer Cotton, Bergil, Faramir, Boromir, Éomer, Imrahil, Elrond, Celeborn, Glorfindel, Galdor, Haldir, Háma, Halbarad, Ingold, Hirgon, Mablung, Éothain, Glóin, Bilbo, Farmer Maggot, Barliman Butturbur, Bill Ferny, Treebeard . . . well, girls can’t count that high, but you get my point, and that’s without even opening a book to check. I’m sure I’ve forgotten at least one. On the other hand, there’s Arwen, Galadriel, Éowyn, Rosie Cotton, Ioreth, Mrs. Maggot and Mrs. Cotton, and that’s it, unless you want to count Shelob. Personally, I don’t. If you’re a real nit-picker you can throw in Finduilas and Lothiriel of Dol Amroth, but they’re just padding with names. We are terribly under-represented! Whine, moan, complain… sue… oh, wait, I’m working for the other side here. The point is, it’s easy to see why Tolkien could come across as having a dislike of women. Why does he go so heavy on the testosterone?

Tolkien’s personal life is often called into service defending the view that he was a misogynist. His was a predominantly male environment, capped by his regular ‘guys-to-hang- out-with’ group, meeting in a bar and gabbing about their jobs, no women allowed, primarily because I imagine that female Oxford dons were in short supply. To me, this has nothing to do with the question of whether or not Tolkien liked or respected women. It says more about the times he was living in and the job he performed (What this says about Oxford’s attitude towards female scholars is completely beside the point). It can’t be doubted that Tolkien was used to this system, having grown up in all-male schools, but none of this means he disliked women on principle. It simply means his circumstances did not lend themselves to a view of women as companions. To me, the facet of his life (and of any married man’s life!) that tells how he truly viewed women can be found in his marriage. Tolkien met his wife when they were both rather young, in their teens if I remember correctly. Once they fell in love, he remained true to her for many years, while the stubborn (and to me, incomprehensible) attitude of his guardian prevented them from marrying. When he finally was allowed to see her, she had seemingly moved on, and was engaged to another. His fidelity went to work for him and won her back. Talk about your true romantic! She supported him emotionally and nurtured his abilities and creativity. She moved with him from university to university, bore and helped raise his children, kept his world together. He described her as "my Lúthien. " Could there be any higher praise? Here’s the point, supported by this brief glimpse into his marriage: Tolkien looked upon women as the inspiration for the heroic deeds of men. Since personal creation comes from personal experience and circumstances, it’s only natural that Tolkien would paint women into his mythos as he saw them (or really, her, his wife, Edith) in his own world: to be placed on a pedestal, to be drawn on for support in times of trial, to be looked up to as a cherished ideal, to receive their wisdom in times of confusion, to be treasured once their love had been won (No small feat, either in his own life or in the lives of his heroes).

Let’s look at his female creations. Arwen, beloved of The Man Who Would Be King. What did she do? Sat around in the valley, embroidered a flag, sent an emerald tie-tack. What a gal. But we know Our Hero kept her as the sustaining flame in his heart, perhaps more even than the thought of the throne and the downfall of the Shadow. Her love came riding with the Rangers through the night to bring hope to Aragorn and his followers. We know she was willing to give up the entire way of life that she knew in order to be with him (Don’t complain to me about how she gave up everything and he gave up nothing, either …he couldn’t become immortal to be with her. She had the choice, and she made it). Now, maybe you don’t want that kind of relationship, but that’s the way it fell out for Our Hero and his Lady Fair. On him was the doom of his ancestry; the saving of the West was his duty, and he looked to Arwen, his love, for the inspiration to get the job done.

Galadriel. Does anybody else get a slight feeling of the creeps when we talk about this lady? To me, she is one of the single most powerful characters in the book. It is never overtly stated, but I always get the impression that she is much more of a bad dude than Celeborn could ever have hoped to be. Perhaps it’s the phrasing when Tolkien states that she "dwelt" with Celeborn, not that she was married to him. Also, when the Company first arrives in Caras Galadon and are having their audience with the Lord and Lady, Galadriel always speaks after Celeborn, and always seems to have something to say that upstages him. She always comes off as just a small jump ahead of him in figuring things out.

The Lord looked at them again. ‘Here there are eight,’ he said. ‘Nine were to set out: so said the messages. But maybe there has been some change of counsel that we have not heard…’

‘Nay, there was no change of counsel,’ said the Lady Galadriel, speaking for the first time. …‘Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land…’

‘And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.’

‘He would be rash indeed that said that thing,’ said Galadriel gravely. ‘ Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose. But however it may be with the guide, the followers are blameless. Do not repent of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlórien, who of the Galadrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons?’

Throughout the Company’s stay in Lórien, she dispenses wisdom like glasses of water to the thirsty, though we see that she has her weaknesses also, like any Child of Iluvatar:

‘You are wise and fearless and fair, Lady Galadriel,’ said Frodo. ‘I will give you the One Ring, if you ask for it. It is too great a matter for me.’

Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh. ‘Wise the Lady Galadriel may be,’ she said, ‘yet here she has met her match in courtesy. …I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer… in place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible …all shall love me and despair! …I pass the test,’ she said. ‘I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.’

Wise, powerful, great, sometimes terrible, stern and fair. Yet even in her regal bearing she still takes on some of the same role we saw in Arwen: she is an inspiration, especially to Legolas, her kindred, and Gimli, to whom she becomes almost a mystical mother. He is downcast when it appears she has sent him no message, later in the book, and it is not until he receives her words that he takes new heart for the adventure.

Rose Cotton and Mrs. Cotton, Mrs. Maggot, and Ioreth the healing-woman of Gondor. I can hear the feminists putting on their scoffing-expressions right this instant. But just because these ladies play the "traditional" female roles of healing, nurturing, and homemaking, is not a reason to either write them off or to start beating on Tolkien. They play their own parts, nothing more, and the other women in the book are not lessened or changed by the fact that these stout-hearted women were anything but in the front lines, not whackin’ off Nazgûl heads, but healing those who came back the worse for wear, filling up stomachs after a hungry night’s work of driving off "ruffians," handing out mushrooms, and being the devoted "girl next door" when Sam returns from "chasing Black Men up mountains."

Éowyn of the Rohirrim. Doesn’t everybody’s heart, male or female, skip a beat when we talk about this girl? Slender and fair as a lily, sterner than steel, I believe, is one of her descriptions. She also had a duty to perform, and it wasn’t to stay behind until the men came back looking for their supper. Those roles are important, and the women mentioned above filled them admirably. But Éowyn has another calling. She has some of the most stirring and defiant speeches in the length and breadth of the whole book.

‘But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse?… Shall I always be chosen?’ she said bitterly. ‘Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?… All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.’

Wow, she’s groovy, eh? The contrast between Éowyn and somebody like Rosie Cotton is crystal clear to me in this one point: It’s all in what you choose. Rosie is content to make a home, to be a nurturing and supporting influence, but Éowyn is not. Tolkien paints women with different desires, different paths of life, different callings and duties!! And THIS is our cold, medieval misogynist? That’s just barking up the wrong tree. It is Aragorn, Éomer, and Theoden who try to push Éowyn into a mold that is not her own, and she does every feminist in the world proud when she breaks it. My all-time favorite passage, kind of like when Luke throws down his lightsaber and declares "I-am-a-Jedi-like-my-father-before-me," is when Dernhelm is revealed:

‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me.’

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’

Every time I read this I want to stand up and cheer and holler! It is a triumph for a woman, but to me, the triumph is not in the fact that she is doing what a man would normally do; it is in the fact that she has followed her path despite the attempts to push her into another one, and I have just as much respect for Rosie, Arwen, Galadriel, and Ioreth, for following their paths, whatever those roles may be, repugnant to some feminists as they may be.

The bottom line is that it’s all in what you choose. Men and women are different from one another, but so are individual women (And men, but that’s another column). My best friend, a sworn-in attorney and avowed feminist who, when telling her husband to wash the dishes, reminds him, "I cooked tonight, so you clean up," (I think she would wash dishes and make him cook, were it not for the fact that she likes to eat actual food), will still, when we’re confronted with shoveling snow or killing bugs, hold me back and say, "This is what we have guys for." That’s because she doesn’t like to shovel snow or kill bugs. Me, I give her my cross-eyed look and go right on shovelling the snow or killing the bug. It’s all in what you choose, and Tolkien knew this. His women are as varied in their paths of destiny as they are in their looks and height. The fact that there are so few of them is a result of how Tolkien himself views women: as special. Each had a different, chosen path, with its own responsibilities and rewards, and in the end, Tolkien didn’t need a passel of women because a surplus would have lessened the individuality of each one. Can you even remember which Elf Haldir is without looking it up? Or whether Ingold worked for Denethor or for Theoden? How about Hirgon? But nobody I know has ever mixed up Galadriel with Arwen or Éowyn (Well, nobody who really cares). Perhaps the men should be hollering about how Tolkien stereotyped them into the roles of wall-building and gate-guarding. All I can say for sure is that Tolkien cherished "his Lúthien" and put that perspective into his portrayal of females in The Lord of the Rings. Maybe you wouldn’t like to be any of the women in the book, ladies, and men, maybe you wouldn’t like your girlfriends to take on some of those roles, but in the end, it’s a matter of personal perspective, not sex perspective, and really, aren’t there enough perspectives to go around? Let’s let Tolkien have his cherished vision of womanhood without being beaten up for it. I, for one, would be proud if a man came to view me as a Lúthien. Or as a Galadriel, an Arwen, a Rosie, an Éowyn… I could go on… and on…

UPDATED!

DOH! An alert reader has written to point out how I completely forgot about both Goldberry and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. !!! Well, a friend pointed out Lobelia a few days ago, but to tell the truth, I didn't mind forgetting her, the old bat. ;) But Goldberry is another matter, and I just wanted to forestall the deluge of emails sure to come if I don't admit that I forgot her. So sorry! In a shortened version of what I would have said of her, she is like a version of Galadriel with a smaller responsibility. She has the mystic and imaginary qualities of Galadriel, the unknown origins of a water spirit or a dryad, and the nurturing qualities of Arwen & Rosie Cotton combined. Anyway, thanks for keeping me on the track, because Heaven knows I'll be the first to admit how totally imperfect I am! Thanks, all.

Author: Anwyn
Published on:
November 10, 1999


TOPICS: Books/Literature; TV/Movies; The Hobbit Hole
KEYWORDS: characters; feminism; tolkien; women
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To: Alkhin
O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas.
21 posted on 11/21/2002 8:27:59 PM PST by Varda
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To: HairOfTheDog
I absolutely agree! What I love about Tolkien's book is that men are portrayed as men really are. Men being men. Actually - and I don't care what other women say - I think the story would be ruined if he had put a female in the fellowship. The women in the story are strong, intelligent and leaders in their own right, but each character has his or her own role to play. The book reflects the standards and culture of Tolkien's time - not our time. If anybody has a problem with that, well, too bad! What is - is. :-)
22 posted on 11/21/2002 8:56:26 PM PST by sneakers
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To: JameRetief
I'm glad to see women in LOTR portrayed positively. =)

Although I love the movie, I do still wish they had not expanded Arwens part. I hear they are expanding the parts of Arwen and Eowyn more in TT. They were just fine the way they were in the book!

I know I know, it's to get the peeps in to see the movie who have never read the book.

And what's up with the poster that shows Aragorn with Arwen and Eowyn behind him? What does that have to do with the actual story, anyway? If you didn't know the books you would think Aragorn is the main hero and those are his 2 babes. Sheesh!!!

23 posted on 11/21/2002 11:03:27 PM PST by libertygirl
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To: sneakers
The book reflects the standards and culture of Tolkien's time - not our time.

True, but not comprehensive.

The book is about an epic quest and medieval style warfare. Females are utterly outclassed in this type of combat.

Some argue that women of today can function effectively in combat. And they are probably perfectly capable of competing equally as pilots and in other combat roles. But few will claim that women could serve effectively in the Special Forces or paratroopers.

Muscle-powered combat, as in LOTR, puts an enormously greater empasis on physical prowess than any form of modern combat. Putting women into a pike formation or a heavy cavalry unit would be like putting them into the defensive line of an NFL team. They just could not compete, and as a result would be quickly slaughtered.

One of the most irritating aspects of much modern fantasy is its predilection to just ignore the basic facts of human biology.

24 posted on 11/23/2002 10:02:24 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Restorer
Well said. You are, of course, right, Restorer. I am not at well-read and have as much understanding of the subject matter as you.
25 posted on 11/24/2002 2:30:06 PM PST by sneakers
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To: libertygirl
If you didn't know the books you would think Aragorn is the main hero and those are his 2 babes.

That's not all that far off.

Aragorn is one of the four main heroes of LOTR, the other three being, IMHO, Gandalf, Frodo and Sam.

The book made it obvious that Eowyn had a serious crush on Aragorn, although in a somewhat immature way.

Like you, I'm not crazy about the tampering with the canonical story to get the broads into the action more, since I think the heroics of Eowyn stand out better in isolation. But I think most of us recognize that PJ has accomplished something I would have have not believed possible.

BTW, I wonder what will happen when ROTK premieres and people realize that all the Bad Men have dark skins? If he stays true to The Book.

26 posted on 11/26/2002 6:44:25 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Restorer
BTW, I wonder what will happen when ROTK premieres and people realize that all the Bad Men have dark skins? If he stays true to The Book.

Not actually true; they are allies of Sauron, but as you recall from the Oliphaunt scene, Sam speculates whether they were forced to come and fight for Sauron. It's not clear at all that these people are evil.

Also, there are plenty of "whites" who are on the wrong side...Dunlendings fighting for Sauruman (although I hear no mention of them in TTT coming soon? Has Peter Jackson elminated them?)....the wraiths who Aragorn calls to fulfill their oaths...the "black" Numenoreans who go over to the service of Sauron, etc.

27 posted on 12/01/2002 3:45:18 PM PST by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: JameRetief
Men Are From Gondor, Women Are From Lothlórien

Democrats are from Angmar.

28 posted on 12/01/2002 3:46:05 PM PST by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
Also, there are plenty of "whites" who are on the wrong side...

You're right. Except there are several other places in Tolkien where the Southern peoples are portrayed as being peculiarly prone to Sauron's influence. Couldn't give you chapter and verse, but it's in there.

He makes a big thing about how (for the most part) only the Edain and their relatives (the Northern peoples) are resistant to evil. That's over the entire 6000 years or so covered in his history, so it starts to look a lot like a genetic type of thing.

Only about half the Men in Sauron's army are Southerners. The rest are from the East. The only thing I remember about them is they tend to fight with axes and wear beards. Nothing about skin color.

BTW. From what I hear, they are going to portray Saruman's attack on Rohan as a genocidal war to exterminate humans. If Dunlendings make up a big chunk of his army, it kind of puts a crimp in this storyline.

29 posted on 12/02/2002 8:26:04 AM PST by Restorer
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