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Inconstant Speed of Light May Debunk Einstein
Reuters (via Yahoo) ^ | August 7, 2002 | Michael Christie

Posted on 08/07/2002 12:53:40 PM PDT by Darth Reagan

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1 posted on 08/07/2002 12:53:40 PM PDT by Darth Reagan
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To: Darth Reagan
The speed of light has never been constant. It is only constant in a vacuum, or a piece of glass, or a quartz crystal (that is to say, light will always travel the same speed in a piece of glass, or in a quartz crystal, or in a vacuum, but if it goes from one medium to another, its speed will change). If light travels through interstellar clouds, it will of course slow down.
2 posted on 08/07/2002 1:01:50 PM PDT by Thane_Banquo
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To: Darth Reagan
Davies, and astrophysicists Tamara Davis and Charles Lineweaver from the University of New South Wales published the proposal in the August 8 edition of scientific journal Nature.

Wow... Looks like not only have they debunked Einstein, but they have also achieved time travel, having journeyed into the future to publish their findings.

3 posted on 08/07/2002 1:26:06 PM PDT by The Electrician
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To: Physicist
bump
4 posted on 08/07/2002 1:26:07 PM PDT by Darth Reagan
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To: *crevo_list; VadeRetro; PatrickHenry; Scully; RadioAstronomer; JediGirl; jennyp; Gumlegs; ...
I uploaded this file five minutes ago and it got yanked because someone beat me to the draw. Oh well. Here it is, folks.
5 posted on 08/07/2002 1:37:19 PM PDT by Junior
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To: Darth Reagan
Hmm.

I'll aways recall Davies" last words in his The Mind Of God:

"We were meant to be here."

6 posted on 08/07/2002 1:40:43 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Darth Reagan
I have a question. Is it not true that E=MC2 states that as an object with mass approaches the speed of light, its mass will increase to the point that it cannot accelerate further and never achieve "light speed"? If so, then how does light travel at the speed of light? Light has mass, doesn't it? If not, why is it effected by gravity?

Please forgive the question, but I have zero background in such matters. It just seems like a logical question...

7 posted on 08/07/2002 1:41:00 PM PDT by RoughDobermann
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To: RoughDobermann
"I have a question. Is it not true that E=MC2 states that as an object with mass approaches the speed of light, its mass will increase to the point that it cannot accelerate further and never achieve "light speed"? If so, then how does light travel at the speed of light? Light has mass, doesn't it? If not, why is it effected by gravity?"

Photons have no "rest mass". They are essentially zero-mass. In fact, objects with zero mass must travel at light speed.

E=MC2 does not say you can't reach lightspeed.

The Lorentz equations are the operable ones. They predict that the mass of a body increases without limit as "C" is approached. In essence, the energy you are putting in to "push" the object to go faster just gets soaked up in its increasing mass, not in velocity.

Photons have no mass, but the do carry momentum.

The reasons that light is affected by gravity is that light always follows "space-time geodesics". Ordinarily, such geodesics are "straight lines". Near a large mass (like the Sun or a black hole) the geodesics of space-time are not "straight" but bent by the gravitation of the body. Therefore light departs from a "straight line" and travels in a curve. This is because--in effect--the warping caused by the mass causes a curved path to be the "shortest distance" for the light to travel.

--Boris

8 posted on 08/07/2002 1:48:34 PM PDT by boris
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To: onedoug

I'll aways recall Davies" last words in his The Mind Of God:

"We were meant to be here."

I'll always recall God's Last Words to His Creation in Life, the Universe and Everything:

"We apologize for the inconvenience."

9 posted on 08/07/2002 1:56:18 PM PDT by Junior
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To: boris
The reasons that light is affected by gravity is that light always follows "space-time geodesics". Ordinarily, such geodesics are "straight lines". Near a large mass (like the Sun or a black hole) the geodesics of space-time are not "straight" but bent by the gravitation of the body. Therefore light departs from a "straight line" and travels in a curve. This is because--in effect--the warping caused by the mass causes a curved path to be the "shortest distance" for the light to travel.

Ah, thank you! For both the science lesson AND the grammar correction! I have always mixed those two up...

10 posted on 08/07/2002 1:56:54 PM PDT by RoughDobermann
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To: Darth Reagan

11 posted on 08/07/2002 1:58:33 PM PDT by Cagey
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To: boris
Photons have no "rest mass". They are essentially zero-mass. In fact, objects with zero mass must travel at light speed.

Sorry, I overlooked this one... By "no rest mass," do you mean that they have no mass when "still"? If objects with zero rest mass must travel at light speed (and are therefore never "resting"), how do we know that they have no mass while at rest? Please tell me to shut up if I'm annoying you with these simplistic questions :-)

12 posted on 08/07/2002 2:01:09 PM PDT by RoughDobermann
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To: Darth Reagan
The suggestion that the speed of light can change is based on data collected by UNSW astronomer John Webb, who posed a conundrum when he found that light from a distant quasar, a star-like object, had absorbed the wrong type of photons from interstellar clouds on its 12 billion year journey to earth.

The writing--I assume the reporter is a fault--obscures the message. Light does not absorb photons. Interstellar gas and dust absorb photons. Something like that seems intended.

They also applied another dogma of physics, the second law of thermodynamics, which Davies summarizes as "you can't get something for nothing."

That would be the first law. The second law is that entropy always increases in a closed system. ("You can't break even.")

What really bugs me is that the fans of Australian creationist Barry Setterfield (Mr. CDK) will be all over this thread claiming vindication. I see two possibilities. 1) This theory does not vindicate CDK. 2) This theory is a crock.

13 posted on 08/07/2002 2:28:06 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Junior
From the article:
The suggestion that the speed of light can change is based on data collected by UNSW astronomer John Webb, who posed a conundrum when he found that light from a distant quasar, a star-like object, had absorbed the wrong type of photons from interstellar clouds on its 12 billion year journey to earth.

The "wrong type of photons"? I suppose this is the result of sloppy journalism, so common in accounts like this. But there must be more to it than we're told in this article.

14 posted on 08/07/2002 2:32:09 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
Has to be the wrong wavelength of photons. That's all there is for types.
15 posted on 08/07/2002 2:38:19 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach; Libertarianize the GOP
fyi
16 posted on 08/07/2002 3:06:08 PM PDT by Free the USA
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To: RoughDobermann
Good questions! I'm gonna stick my neck out here since I'm certainly no physicist (so someone correct me if I'm wrong).

The "rest mass" of a particle by definition is its mass as measured in its own frame of reference. For a photon, m = hf/c2, where h is Planck's constant and f is its frequency.

What's the frequency of a photon in its own frame of reference? In other words, how many wave peaks are passing you per second if you were travelling along side the photon? Zero, right? Therefore, the rest mass of the photon is also zero, theoretically.

Okay, someone who knows more physics than I do swat me down like a fly! :-)

BTW, here's a fun site that touches on lots of questions like that (e.g., see #126). My favorite is question #53: How much energy would be released if a marshmallow hit the Earth travelling 99.99% the speed of light (Answer: As much energy as in a "few dozen good-sized hydrogen bombs.").

17 posted on 08/07/2002 3:55:53 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Free the USA
thanks for the ping
18 posted on 08/07/2002 4:02:11 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: LibWhacker
For a photon, m = hf/c², where h is Planck's constant and f is its frequency.

I'm assuming you're combining E=hf and E=mc². The problem is that E=mc² doesn't apply to photons.

The general equation is E² = (pc)² + (mc²)² where p is the momentum. For a photon, E=pc; m=0 by geometry.

The problem with your analysis is that the principle of relativity prevents you from constructing--or even envisioning--a frame that is comoving with a photon. Light moves at speed c in all inertial frames; the moment you say that you are in an inertial frame, you are saying that light is moving at c with respect to you. Even in the limiting process where you approach the speed of light, the speed of light with respect to you does not go to zero. It remains fixed at c. Light itself does not have an inertial frame.

19 posted on 08/07/2002 5:39:36 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: Physicist
Yep, I was combining those two equations. Thanks, doc. Thwarted again, LOL! :-)

Question: But can't we envision being an observer photon moving alongside another photon?

20 posted on 08/07/2002 5:48:16 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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