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To: 2Jedismom; aBootes; Alkhin; allthatisgolddoesnotglitter; Anitius Severinus Boethius; ...
Green Dragon Ping!

Hullo friends! … Welcome to Monday in the Green Dragon!

This is just a Monday bumper to encourage everyone see the good discussion about orcs that was had over the weekend and maybe add some more to it!

There are a couple of excerpts I want to include that I don't think have been talked about yet:

First is the section about orcs in Appendix F, Languages and Peoples of the Third Age:

Orcs and the Black Speech. Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'.

The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days. It is said that they bad no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their own liking; yet they made only brutal jargons, scarcely sufficient even for their own needs, unless it were for curses and abuse. And these creatures, being filled with malice, hating even their own kind, quickly developed as many barbarous dialects as there were groups or settlements of their race, so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes.

So it was that in the Third Age Orcs used for communication between breed and breed the Westron tongue; and many indeed of the older tribes, such as those that still lingered in the North and in the Misty Mountains, had long used the Westron as their native language, though in such a fashion as to make it hardly less unlovely than Orkish. In this jargon tark, 'man of Gondor', was a debased form of tarkil, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenorean descent; see III, 54.

It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he bad desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose. From the Black Speech, however, were derived many of the words that were in the Third Age wide-spread among the Orcs, such as ghâsh 'fire', but after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. When Sauron arose again, it became once more the language of Barad-dûr and of the captains of Mordor. The inscription on the Ring was in the ancient Black Speech, while the curse of the Mordor-orc in II, 53. was in the more debased form used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower, of whom Grishnákh was the captain. Sharku in that tongue means old man.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And finally, I am ready for the good news… Merry and Pippin's escape! We have come to the part of the story where the Riders of Rohan have overtaken the company of orcs, and surrounded them at the edge of the Fangorn forest: They do not immediately attack, and the orcs debate the causes and effects of their apparent hesitation. The luck that saves them is the curiosity and greed of the captain from Mordor…

Pippin and Merry sat up. Their guards, Isengarders, had gone with Uglúk. But if the hobbits had any thought of escape, it was soon dashed. A long hairy arm took each of them by the neck and drew them close together. Dimly they were aware of Grishnákh's great head and hideous face between them; his foul breath was on their cheeks. He began to paw them and feel them. Pippin shuddered as hard cold fingers groped down his back.

'Well, my little ones!' said Grishnákh in a soft whisper. 'Enjoying your nice rest? Or not? A little awkwardly placed, perhaps: swords and whips on one side, and nasty spears on the other! Little people should not meddle in affairs that are too big for them.' His fingers continued to grope. There was a light like a pale but hot fire behind his eyes.

The thought came suddenly into Pippin's mind, as if caught direct from the urgent thought of his enemy: 'Grishnákh knows about the Ring! He's looking for it, while Uglúk is busy: he probably wants it for himself.' Cold fear was in Pippin's heart, yet at the same time he was wondering what use he could make of Grishnákh's desire. 'I don't think you will find it that way,' he whispered. 'It isn't easy to find.'…

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Suddenly he seized them. The strength in his long arms and shoulders was terrifying. He tucked them one under each armpit, and crushed them fiercely to his sides; a great stifling hand was clapped over each of their mouths. Then he sprang forward, stooping low. Quickly and silently he went, until he came to the edge of the knoll. There, choosing a gap between the watchers, he passed like an evil shadow out into the night, down the slope and away westward towards the river that flowed out of the forest. In that direction there was a wide open space with only one fire.

After going a dozen yards he halted, peering and listening. Nothing could be seen or heard. He crept slowly on, bent almost double. Then he squatted and listened again. Then he stood up, as if to risk a sudden dash. At that very moment the dark form of a rider loomed up right in front of him. A horse snorted and reared. A man called out.

Grishnákh flung himself on the ground flat, dragging the hobbits under him; then he drew his sword. No doubt he meant to kill his captives, rather than allow them to escape or to be rescued; but it was his undoing. The sword rang faintly, and glinted a little in the light of the fire away to his left. An arrow came whistling out of the gloom: it was aimed with skill, or guided by fate, and it pierced his right hand. He dropped the sword and shrieked. There was a quick beat of hoofs, and even as Grishnákh leaped up and ran, he was ridden down and a spear passed through him. He gave a hideous shivering cry and lay still.


(screen capture from Japanese promotional telecast)

The hobbits remained flat on the ground, as Grishnákh had left them. Another horseman came riding swiftly to his comrade's aid. Whether because of some special keenness of sight, or because of some other sense, the horse lifted and sprang lightly over them; but its rider did not see them, lying covered in their elven-cloaks, too crushed for the moment, and too afraid to move.

At last Merry stirred and whispered softly: 'So far so good: but how are we to avoid being spitted?'

Well, as we know, they don't get spitted, and they find that their sneaky captor had managed to get them outside the circle of riders. They are able to crawl off into the woods during the battle that followed… They are still far from home, but alive. And as it turns out, friends are not far off.

Below we see the scene after the battle, soldiers of Rohan walking among the fallen orcs, and a few of their own… Fallen men orcs and horses lay mingled in the morning.

See the links below to backtrack to any of the prior chapter posts: We can keep talking about orcs and resilient hobbits as we wish to the rest of this week… and look forward to the DVD release of the FoTR tomorrow. The image above is from the TTT Special preview that will be included in the package… So with that said, Hullo – Good Morning!

Index to thread:
Chapter 1 and 2: The Departure of Boromir and The Riders of Rohan (Post #2)
Chapter 2 mid week bumper: The Riders of Rohan (Post #122)
Chapter 3: The Uruk-Hai (Post #195)

293 posted on 08/05/2002 11:52:11 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard.

Does that mean that Sauron had his own Uruk-hai? Interesting....

294 posted on 08/05/2002 12:00:45 PM PDT by ksen
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To: HairOfTheDog
Cold fear was in Pippin's heart, yet at the same time he was wondering what use he could make of Grishnákh's desire. 'I don't think you will find it that way,' he whispered. 'It isn't easy to find.'…

I just love my little guy!! LOL An inspired moment that must have been a truely terrifying one: it could have gone horribly wrong, and Grishnakh deciding to knife them right then and there. That he chose to try and run off with them secret like before trying to knife them was as much a roll of the dice as anything else that happened in LOTR. I think the thing that really intrigues me the most about Tolkien's writing is how he flips the expectations of a plot line. When I first read this, I was sure Merry and Pippin were goners.

296 posted on 08/05/2002 12:10:17 PM PDT by Alkhin
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To: HairOfTheDog
"...as we know, they don't get spitted, and they find that their sneaky captor had managed to get them outside the circle of riders. "

Hair you stopped just short of what illustrates what makes the Hobbits SO different from the other races and what makes them so darn charming. At this point in the story we get...

" The hobbits each ate two or three pieces. (of lembas)...the taste brought back to them the memory of fair faces, and laughter, and wholesome food in quiet days now far away. For a while, they ate thoghtfully, sitting in the dark heedless of the cries and sounds of battle nearby.

And then we get this as they managed to crawl away from the fighting...

As they walked they compared notes, talking lightly in hobbit-fashion of the things that had happened since their capture. No listener would have guessed from their words that they had suffered cruelly, and been in dire peril, going without hope towards torment and death; or that

This is just rich! and so Hobbitty.

298 posted on 08/05/2002 12:19:12 PM PDT by LinnieBeth
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To: HairOfTheDog
Got my DVD today. Pretty darn cool. I haven't had the chance to look through everything, but the preview of the Two Towers is quite a teaser--everything about the film looks and sounds amazing. Also, the sound on the DVD seems clearer and easier on the ears than the theater version.

Also, a preview of the special edition confirms that some of the new scenes will include Gimli falling for Galadriel and the recieving of the gifts in Lothlorien.

312 posted on 08/05/2002 3:08:53 PM PDT by jrherreid
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To: HairOfTheDog
Below we see the scene after the battle, soldiers of Rohan walking among the fallen orcs, and a few of their own… Fallen men orcs and horses lay mingled in the morning.

Too bad this scene was entirely fabricated. The Orcs were all gathered up and burned. The very few Rohirrim who died were buried (with their horses IIRC). 15 Rohirrim died and 12 Horses. That is why the Three Hunters dispaired of finding clear signs of Merry and Pippen, thinking their bodies had been mingled *and burned* with the Orcs.

Oh well. I guess this is more dramatic.

Tuor

317 posted on 08/05/2002 5:41:41 PM PDT by Tuor
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To: HairOfTheDog
'Grishnákh knows about the Ring!

This may seem obvious by this point, but this is something that has impacted everything that went before this: The enemy(s) and at least some of their Orc captains have been alerted from the very start that Hobbits are carrying the Ring. This is the great importance of there being a number of Hobbits in the Fellowship.

Remember at Rivendell, when there was quite the council about who should be Ring-bearer and who should accompany the bearer? Even when Frodo offered to bear the Ring, there was a great deal of skepticism about that and especially about Merry and Pippin joining the Fellowship. Elrond wanted them to go back home, if I'm remembering correctly.

Given the need for deception, how critical it was that there were a number of Hobbits in the Fellowship. It was capturing these two (Merry and Pippin) that drew the Orcs away from Emyn Muil - and off the tail of the true Ring Bearer.

326 posted on 08/05/2002 6:37:11 PM PDT by Scott from the Left Coast
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