LoTR-The Two Towers: Book discussion (The Green Dragon Inn) III

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.

We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.

It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.

Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!

[GretchenEE]

)From WFTR) "I don't see the Lord of the Rings books as being distinctly Christian. While there is a spiritual element to them, it never appeared to be me to be Christian."

From: http://www.family.org/teenguys/breakmag/features/a0018699.html

Intentions
Just how serious were these writers {Tolkien and C.S. Lewis] about the Christian purpose of their "verbal inventions"? Let's ask them.

Lewis made no secret of his intentions. "Supposing," he once asked himself, reflecting on the nature of God, the sufferings of Christ, and other fundamental Christian truths, "that by casting all these things into an imaginary world, stripping them of their stained-glass and Sunday school associations, one could make them for the first time appear in their real potency. . . ." This, he said, is exactly what he was trying to do in The Chronicles of Narnia.

As for Tolkien, he would have been shocked and angered to hear ... [anyone] refer to his work as pagan.

"The Lord of the Rings," he wrote in a letter to a friend, "is of course a fundamentally religious and Christian work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."

Humphrey Carpenter, author of Tolkien's authorized biography, takes this claim seriously. Tolkien's writings, he says, are "the work of a profoundly religious man." According to Carpenter, God is essential to everything that happens in The Lord of the Rings. Without Him, Middle-earth couldn't exist.

But be forewarned: Evidences of God's presence are not as obvious in Tolkien's work as in Lewis' more allegorical style of writing. They are there, however — firmly embedded in the tales he insisted on calling "inventions about Truth." < snip >

[LinnieBeth]

Gretchen, that link was really wonderful, thank you.

[GretchenEE]

Interesting comments surrounding #139 and the long, slow defeat.

[GretchenEE]

when Gandalf appeared in the preview in his white robes and with his long straight hair

His resurrected eyebrows are different, too.

[Mamzelle]

I noticed the straightening effect, too! I'll bet that was a matter of controversy in the make-up crew, who decided making the beard and hair silky would take away from the danger of a Santa Claus appearance. Think of a white, curly beard and you also think of Saint Nick.

[GretchenEE]

In theology I've come across the appropriate phrase "joyful sadness." Not to drift off topic, but it is the flavor of the Cross. In traditional Orthodox iconography, the Cross is often depicted as flowering, bursting in to bud and flower like a living tree.

Hmmm. Reminds me very much of the budding of Aaron's rod among the rods of the 12 tribes, when each was laid up before the Lord for the night. (Numbers 17:5 And it shall come to pass, that the man’s rod, whom I shall choose, shall blossom: and I will make to cease from me the murmurings of the children of Israel, whereby they murmur against you. 6 And Moses spake unto the children of Israel, and every one of their princes gave him a rod apiece, for each prince one, according to their fathers’ houses, even twelve rods: and the rod of Aaron was among their rods. 7 And Moses laid up the rods before the LORD in the tabernacle of witness. 8 And it came to pass, that on the morrow Moses went into the tabernacle of witness; and, behold, the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded, and brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.)

[GretchenEE]

as a wanna be writer, I've been wondering if I can come close to the eloquence as expressed in LOTR.

The best way to build and flex your eloquence is to do as you are doing, read / reread the great works of literature until they are a part of you. Read them aloud; read them silently. Look up and memorize words you don't currently understand. And then write. For starters, take a passage that really speaks to you and write it in your own words, but stretching yourself a bit, making your version as evocative as possible and, of course, weaving in your own perspective. Then, as ideas begin to form in your own head about story lines, write what you have, then write it as you think one of your favorite authors would write it. We are only one, but as writers, we must become many. This really helps to get into other people's heads when writing dialogue and motives, as well as landing on heart-stopping word choices.

[GretchenEE]

To me... evil as he is... Smeagol/Gollum is the best character in the book

If I were going to do a semi-spoiler moment, I would say that my favorite word from Gollum is the "sneaking" reply he gives to Sam. It cracked me up when I read it, and again as I recall it.

[LinnieBeth]

...favorite word from Gollum is the "sneaking" reply he gives to Sam.

Huh? what reply?

[GretchenEE]

Gollum's reply ...

Um, er, we aren't there yet.

I'm glad you liked the whole article at Focus on the Family, about Tolkien's motives. When all the buzz began, I did an Internet search on Tolkien and the trilogy -- it may seem hard to believe but I had never heard of his work before the movie buzz started, and I wanted to know what I would be wading into before I put on my wading boots! Focus' article really set my mind at ease. I've read a number of other articles in that genre but FotR's is, I think, the best in addressing this side of the issue.

[Overtaxed]

Okay I read my chapter like a good little hobbit and I can't help but say "Yes!!" The Good Guys are finally mustering. Gandalf is back and he wants some action.

But there's some things that need fixing. At the gates of Edoras:

None are welcome here in days of war but our own folk, and those that come from Mundburg in the land of Gondor.

At the doors:

'I am the Doorward of Theoden,' he said. 'Hama is my name. Here I must bid you lay aside your weapons before you enter.'

Gandalf is losing his patience with this nonsense...

'Come, come!' said Gandalf. 'We are all friends here. Or should be, for the laughter of Mordor will be our only reward, if we quarrel. My errand is pressing. Here at least is my sword, goodman Hama. Keep it well. Glamdring it is called, for the Elves made it long ago. Now let me pass. Come, Aragorn!'

...and proceeds to heal the suspicion and discord that Saruman has inflicted.

'Hail, Theoden, son of Thengel! I have returned. For behold! The storm comes, and now all friends should gather together, lest each singly be destroyed.'

[LinnieBeth]

OT, your list of 'things that need fixing- What are your suggestions? and can we throw in Eomer's inprisonment? and I think we have a very clear example of Theoden's release from a "demonic oppression" coming up too. That's in big need of fixing don't you think?

But, backing up just a few paragraphs, We have the guard at the main gate addressing Gandalf/The White Rider thus:
"Old and weary you seem now, yet you are fell and grim beneath.

I always thought "fell" meant evil, but in this instance does it mean 'super-natural"?
...and don't you think this is an example of the guard 'having eyes to see'?

[Overtaxed]

don't you think this is an example of the guard 'having eyes to see'?

Yes! The guard definately feels Gandalf's power.

Wonder why he used the word fell? I guess the "awesome" meaning, but the connotations don't sound too encouraging: "Fierce, cruel, savage" doesn't sound like Gandalf. But then maybe he meant the "chiefly Scot" meanings (or so it says in my Webster's Dictionary):"eager", or "shrewd" and "clever", or maybe "strange and inexplicable.":)

The things that need fixing.

I suppose I should have said "thing" instead of "things." The "thing" is the distrust and fear that Wormtongue has planted in Theoden and is growing to the point where he even imprisons Eomer. Other symptoms would be the "absolutely no strangers policy" and the "weapons at the door" policy. Both keep the true friends and allies of Theoden and Rohan away. Theoden is putting more and more trust in Wormtongue - Saruman's agent. Theoden is trusting Wormtongue more and more and putting his real friends farther and farther away.

[LinnieBeth]

Yes, you are right about the need to expose and resist Wormtongue. I particularly liked it when Gandalf told Theoden about Wormtongue's mis-allegience-- Theoden didn't reject this information, but 'stood', and in standing up, began regaining his strength and vigor and rejected Wormtongue.
These paragraphs pretty aptly describe being delivered from an oppressive infullence.

I think we've been abandoned Overtaxed! Did you find a lot of stuff from The White Rider didn't get any discussion?

[Overtaxed]

I particularly liked it when Gandalf told Theoden about Wormtongue's mis-allegience-- Theoden didn't reject this information, but 'stood', and in standing up, began regaining his strength and vigor and rejected Wormtongue.

Yes! I liked that part too. Gandalf wasn't going to put up with any of that nonsense. Hehehe. I bet that the Ring of Fire that Gandalf has had a major part in that. Also, I wonder how long it would have taken for the Rohhirim to start breaking up....some supporting Eomer and some supporting Theoden/Wormtongue.

It certainly seems like we've been abandoned! But Sam Cree is away for the week and Hair and her horse took a fall last weekend so she's been busy elsewhere.

We got a little off topic on The White Rider and didn't seem to get back on before the new chapter. One part of The White Rider that I find interesting is how Gandalf described how Saruman the traitor really screwed up!

'And is not that strange? Nothing that we have endured of late has seemed so grievous as the treason of Isengard. Even reckoned as a lord and captain Saruman has grown very strong. He threatens the Men of Rohan and draws off their help from Minas Tirith, even as the main blow is approaching from the East. Yet a treacherous weapon is ever a danger to the hand. Saruman also had a mind to capture the Ring, for hiimself, or at least to snare some hobbits for his evil purposes. So between them our enemies have contrived only to bring Merry and Pippin with marvellous speed, and in the nick of time, to Fangorn, where otherwise they would never have come at all!'

I always like it when the bad guys shoot themselves in the foot!

[HairOfTheDog]

Thank you Stalwarts for continuing the discussion! You are always here and I appreciate that very much.

As OT said, my horse fell on me last weekend and we were both hurtin, though not seriously. My horse has been needing a lot of doctoring and I am still hobbling. I haven't really been able to think of anything else but fixing him.

And I am really behind in a work project so the next day or two may not improve. I am still working now tonight! Ugh! I haven't even had time to read. But Thursday is looking very good! - and I hope to catch up and be able to talk!

[LinnieBeth]

Yet a treacherous weapon is ever a danger to the hand.

YES! I liked that too! That the two evil forces were working independently thus splitting their power! Yeah-
I also liked the part about Merry/Pippin. This was a great example of "making lemonade"; or is scriptural terms- "making all things work for good". Really 'good' since we get to meet Treebeard etal, and the Ents take to the war path.
Now that's some kinda lemonade!
Sorry to hear about Hair- what happened?

[LinnieBeth]

Sorry, should have read forward before posting. Hope you and equine are doing fine. Were you jumping?
I've been treating a little mare for founder now for over a month, not fun to have a hurting horse- my empathy. Lin

[Overtaxed]

I think the horse lost his footing on a gravelly path and fell. I'm sure Hair will fill you in on the details.

Doh! I came to work today without my book! Other than the appearance of a new and improved Gandalf, The White Rider gives us the big picture of what is happening in the War of the Ring. The Ring gone on its way and no longer a temptation to the good guys (well...except Frodo), Sauron and Saruman working against each other (tee hee!), Isengard moving against a Rohan that's having its own inner turmoil, Treebeard marching on an unsuspecting Isengard (another "tee hee". I hope we get to see the Ents break Isengard in the movie). At least we know that Merry and Pippin are safe.

[LinnieBeth]

OT, here's some of the passages regarding Theoden's release from the Wormtongue's power that I found exciting.

Gandalf's version of 'Get behind me Satan'
...Therefore be silent, and keep our forked tongue behind your teeth. I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man till the lightning falls"

Till the lightning falls- - - got any ideas?

Then, Theoden's deliverance: "From the king's hand the black staff fell clattering on the stones. He drew himself up, slowly, as a man that is stiff from long bending over some dull toil. Now tall and straight he stood,and his eyes were blue as he looked into the opening sky."
He heard Gandalf, Stood up, and his eyes were opening.

The he had to resist falling back under the spell. Biblically we are told to, "Resist Satan and he WILL flee."
"Slowly Theoden sat down again, as if weariness still struggled to master him against the will of Gandalf.".......
Gandalf to Theoden, "Your fingers would remember their old strength better, is they grasped a sword-hilt"
So, Theoden rose and put his hand to his siade; but no sword hung at his belt,"....Eomer, straight from prison now offers his sword, and Theoden is on the road to recovery.

This is certainly along the lines of deliverance that I've experienced, and it is interesting that it involves a 'sword', which bibically IS the representation of The Word of God, a weapon that all believers are to rely on.